[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier

I don't believe programming is going to provide the fix. For the third time now I'm contending new hardware is what is required. To me, saying new programming is going to fix the steering feel is like saying you can reprogram electronic dampers to behave like a high-end aftermarket damper... or code can make an OEM turbo perform just like a higher-end/built aftermarket turbo. The code is only controlling the hardware; and hardware is the limitation here. Do people really think the design and construction of steering box hardware can't be advanced, and now it's just software's job? That's ridiculous.

So BMW just forgot how to design and build a proper steering rack?

No one is saying hardware shouldn't be improved when needed.

Why is the consensus it was the change to EPS that drastically altered the steering feel? Yes, going from hydraulic to EPS is a hardware change in of itself. Also explain why coding in GTS/CS specs into the steering system changes how the steering feels?

So be specific, what HARDWARE needs to change? The entire steering system? The EPS motor? The gear assembly to different ratios?

Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier

If new programming is all that's required, why did BMW spec a different steering box in the F80 and not just use the F30 steering box?

This is a serious question? You know the F80 and F30 have different steering ratios which is a result of the gear assembly (which I'm guessing you referring to as the steering box)?

[SabineBimmer]

Originally Posted by Jockey

My steering is always in comfort mode. Easier to control oversteer that way.

Anyways, I got used to the steering feel, even started to think it felt good. Then I would drive my gf's 135i and instantly realized how superior the feel was in that car over my M3.


But hyd steering is gone. Electric is cheaper, more reliable, and less mechanically complicated (less parasitic drag on engine, accessories, etc).

Porsche has figured it out. BMW has made gains (reference my comment earlier on CS/GTS programming over standard Ms). It'll get there.

I hope so.

[maxim77]

Hate those ugly gauges, when they finally put any option to change it to classic?

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Jockey

So BMW just forgot how to design and build a proper steering rack?

No one is saying hardware shouldn't be improved when needed.

Why is the consensus it was the change to EPS that drastically altered the steering feel? Yes, going from hydraulic to EPS is a hardware change in of itself. Also explain why coding in GTS/CS specs into the steering system changes how the steering feels?

So be specific, what HARDWARE needs to change? The entire steering system? The EPS motor? The gear assembly to different ratios?

This is a serious question? You know the F80 and F30 have different steering ratios which is a result of the gear assembly (which I'm guessing you referring to as the steering box)?

I'm speaking to a larger/broader point than gears and ratios. Perhaps I'd be more effective if I described my point as code/programming is not going to make enough of an improvement. A significant change in hardware is required for a significant improvement in steering performance.

If you're so interested in getting specific; what parameters would coding change to make a significant improvement? How would coding significantly improve feel and detail about the tires contacting the surface?

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier

I'm speaking to a larger/broader point than gears and ratios. Perhaps I'd be more effective if I described my point as code/programming is not going to make enough of an improvement. A significant change in hardware is required for a significant improvement in steering performance.

If you're so interested in getting specific; what parameters would coding change to make a significant improvement? How would coding significantly improve feel and detail about the tires contacting the surface?

I'm not a programmer, sorry guy. Even though I've done plenty of coding on my M3. There's a reason people have coding different programs for the steering system. If you want to dig into the GTS EPS code, you're more than welcome to see what changes over the stock parameters.

You're complaining about steering feel it seems. That's not going to change with a quicker or slower ratio, tie rods. Again, the consensus is the change to EPS degraded that. So outside of going back to hydraulic assist, we're stuck with EPS. You improve EPS through the programming.

So you either a.) replace EPS (ie your hardware change) or b.) continue fine tuning the EPS.

[Pinkoboe]

Originally Posted by Jockey

So BMW just forgot how to design and build a proper steering rack?

No one is saying hardware shouldn't be improved when needed.

Why is the consensus it was the change to EPS that drastically altered the steering feel? Yes, going from hydraulic to EPS is a hardware change in of itself. Also explain why coding in GTS/CS specs into the steering system changes how the steering feels?

So be specific, what HARDWARE needs to change? The entire steering system? The EPS motor? The gear assembly to different ratios?



This is a serious question? You know the F80 and F30 have different steering ratios which is a result of the gear assembly (which I'm guessing you referring to as the steering box)?

The fact is the BMW intentionally and deliberately removed feedback from their steering systems. It is not that BMW couldn't figure out how to make EPS work like Porsche did. This interview with this 2016 BMW engineer Johann Kistler:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...steering-feel/

The bottom line is that BMW is pursuing mass markets and has abandoned its core of enthusiasts that helped build their brand. Some of the new models claim to restore steering feel, but in the end, none have recaptured what made this brand so great. The new G22 will be no exception.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Pinkoboe

The fact is the BMW intentionally and deliberately removed feedback from their steering systems. It is not that BMW couldn't figure out how to make EPS work like Porsche did. This interview with this 2016 BMW engineer Johann Kistler:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...steering-feel/

The bottom line is that BMW is pursuing mass markets and has abandoned its core of enthusiasts that helped build their brand. Some of the new models claim to restore steering feel, but in the end, none have recaptured what made this brand so great. The new G22 will be no exception.

I'm not disagreeing with you, at all. I've even posted how the old hydraulic steering felt better than the new EPS.

But EPS is here to stay.

And what's programmed into a 5-series is different than a M. Hell, the ZCP program is different than the CS.

[Pinkoboe]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I'm not disagreeing with you, at all. I've even posted how the old hydraulic steering felt better than the new EPS.

But EPS is here to stay.

And what's programmed into a 5-series is different than a M. Hell, the ZCP program is different than the CS.

EPS is indeed here to stay. The issue is that Porsche, Alfa Romeo, and (FFS!) Cadillac all make their EPS systems with much better steering feel. BMW could do it too, but they intentionally choose not to.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Pinkoboe

EPS is indeed here to stay. The issue is that Porsche, Alfa Romeo, and (FFS!) Cadillac all make their EPS systems with much better steering feel. BMW could do it too, but they intentionally choose not to.

Even Mazda, Honda, and some Mercedes have better EPS, like c'mon BMW. I say this a bunch, but I get that the bread and butter 330 and x3 have to be numb to the touch, but why do M cars that are literally made and targeted for the enthusiast market also numb?!?! I can't imagine many M owners are asking for numb steering!

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by jstein55

Even Mazda, Honda, and some Mercedes have better EPS, like c'mon BMW. I say this a bunch, but I get that the bread and butter 330 and x3 have to be numb to the touch, but why do M cars that are literally made and targeted for the enthusiast market also numb?!?! I can't imagine many M owners are asking for numb steering!

this issue is something that many enthusiasts are scraching their head about. I mean if I am buying m3 zcp or cs you bet I want the car to communicate. Is that surprising?

Also, even base models with sport pkg should have better steering feel. They can make it an option.

[oz555]

Originally Posted by JTO24

For those questioning whether or not they changed the grills back to be smaller... we've already seen a less camo'd mule...
[img]https://bimmerpost.imgix.net/goodies...#38;crop=edges[/img]

The car is getting the big grills.

Funny to say but I want that big grill. First of all it looks mighty, secondary I want visual difference from 3 Series. Wait for the real car to be shown. It will be good.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by oz555

Funny to say but I want that big grill. First of all it looks mighty, secondary I want visual difference from 3 Series. Wait for the real car to be shown. It will be good.

I was on one of the many 4 series threads the other day and my little one was looking over my shoulder and asked, "why did bmw make a grill that looks like someone's butt?"

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Pinkoboe

EPS is indeed here to stay. The issue is that Porsche, Alfa Romeo, and (FFS!) Cadillac all make their EPS systems with much better steering feel. BMW could do it too, but they intentionally choose not to.

Agreed.

Having driven both a 3 and 5 series loaner, the steering in those felt horrible when compared to my M3.

So there's definitely a difference between the steering feel of M and non-M cars

[MarkDemma]

Originally Posted by mbanck

Pretty unlikely the new 2 coupe will have a manual, except for the M2. Unless BMW does a u-turn here and reintroduces the manual for non M-cars.

I know. Guess I'll just have to get a M2.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Agreed.

Having driven both a 3 and 5 series loaner, the steering in those felt horrible when compared to my M3.

So there's definitely a difference between the steering feel of M and non-M cars

Maybe a different tuning in resistance and weighting, but every single BMW regarding feedback is sadly numb, even the great M2 included.

[oz555]

Originally Posted by Fuller

I was on one of the many 4 series threads the other day and my little one was looking over my shoulder and asked, "why did bmw make a grill that looks like someone's butt?"

Some butts can look awesome. Don't You agree?

[StealYourFace]

The "spiritual successor" to the 63csi?

[SeanWRT]

I didn't read thru all the pages, so maybe it's already covered somewhere.

This sounds to me the first time BMW implement 48V tech with petrol engine. And I also remember BMW commented a while ago on why they're late in 48V release and said it's because they wait and only want to use the 2nd generation 48V which is packed in the ZF gear box, instead of being belt driven and hanging on the motor, found with 1st gen 48V that Mercedes and Audi are now using.

Noticeable difference would be of course the power/torque (2nd gen 20~30hp) advantage thru higher convert efficiency. more importantly a smoother power kick in. And long term reliability.

From what this article says, 11hp doesn't really sound like the 2nd gen.

Hope someone in the know shed some light on this topic.

Thanks

Sean

[J-RO]

Originally Posted by Fuller

I was on one of the many 4 series threads the other day and my little one was looking over my shoulder and asked, "why did bmw make a grill that looks like someone's butt?"

Your child is very observant.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I'm not a programmer, sorry guy. Even though I've done plenty of coding on my M3. There's a reason people have coding different programs for the steering system. If you want to dig into the GTS EPS code, you're more than welcome to see what changes over the stock parameters.

You're complaining about steering feel it seems. That's not going to change with a quicker or slower ratio, tie rods. Again, the consensus is the change to EPS degraded that. So outside of going back to hydraulic assist, we're stuck with EPS. You improve EPS through the programming.

So you either a.) replace EPS (ie your hardware change) or b.) continue fine tuning the EPS.

I can see where Dog Face Pony Soldier is coming from. IMO, it is how the electric assist system mechanically connects to the traditional steering rack that dampens transmitted feel and feedback. Programming can definitely make it better, but there's a limit to what programming can do.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by oz555

Some butts can look awesome. Don't You agree?

Agreed! I'm just not used to seeing them in the front.
I don't mind the new grill design anyway. I'm not exactly enthusiastic about it, but If these cars are great to drive and check most of the boxes, the grill wouldn't be a deal breaker. From the descriptions I've read so far, the m440i sounds like it's going to be a blast. I can only imagine the m3/4 will be that much better.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by JTO24

For those questioning whether or not they changed the grills back to be smaller... we've already seen a less camo'd mule...


The car is getting the big grills.

This is the 'M-Sport' front fascia correct?