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      01-11-2019, 05:04 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
If those grill sizes keep increasing their numbers are going to look like Audi
Brilliantly true!!
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      01-11-2019, 05:26 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Conveniently.. nothing at BMW ever is a true tradition any more.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1553566

it appears that " M performance" models are considered to be part of the M lineup in some ways..
What I am saying exactly. If the manufacturer considers them to be part of the M lineup, they are. If you have any problems go and argue with BMW. BMW include m850i in their adverts for M town

I recognise there are different levels of 'M' cars which enthusiasts here are not ready to accept
I'm not sure if we're even reading the same chart because, as I've mentioned earlier, even BMW themselves don't consider M Performance Automobiles to be M Models.
In the link shared by M3 Adjuster , they are clearly separated by a gap in the chart and even color-coded.

So once again, while for purposes of statistical sales numbers and portfolio, M Performance Automobiles are definitely M products, BMW themselves have decided to make a distinction between M Models and M Performance Automobiles from a categorization standpoint.

Perhaps it's advisable to take a page out of your own book, and stop blaming enthusiasts for manufacturing a hierarchy, when BMW themselves are the ones inclined to keep it differentiated.

Still, the important thing to remember, is that M Performance Automobiles are great cars in their own right. Different and differentiated isn't a negative thing in this case.
The differences between M Performance Automobiles and M Models are what makes both categories great choices for their respective customers.


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      01-11-2019, 06:10 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
it's the only way they can appear to be on the same page/in the same ballpark of 100K performance model vehicles along with Mercedes in their print.


BMW M (all) : 102,780 units (+27.2% from 2017) Less- (19,670) X3m40 units = 83,110




Conveniently.. nothing at BMW ever is a true tradition any more.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1553566

it appears that " M performance" models are considered to be part of the M lineup in some ways..
I agree if I am understanding your post correctly. This is nothing more than BMW playing games with numbers and trying to compare apples to apples. They like to eat their cake and have it too.

MP vehicles are not M vehicles. Well except when BMW needs to compete with AMG and show that they can sell almost as many Ms as Mercedes can sell AMGs.

Give me a break BMW. Mercedes made up their mind. Either commit or don't but this in-between stuff...sucks!
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      01-11-2019, 06:45 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi View Post
I agree if I am understanding your post correctly. This is nothing more than BMW playing games with numbers and trying to compare apples to apples. They like to eat their cake and have it too.

MP vehicles are not M vehicles. Well except when BMW needs to compete with AMG and show that they can sell almost as many Ms as Mercedes can sell AMGs.

Give me a break BMW. Mercedes made up their mind. Either commit or don't but this in-between stuff...sucks!
I can't believe it took me 3-4 posts and I still couldn't adequately explain the phenomenon at hand as well as you just did up there, kudos.

This is precisely the situation: BMW wants their cake and be able to eat it too.
They don't want MPA's to be classified as M models, but want it to be accounted for in sales figures.

You're right in that it's all highly manipulative and BMW can't commit to one or the other.
They tread this in-between line so that they can lean either way whenever the situation suits them right.

Great post.
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      01-11-2019, 06:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi View Post
I agree if I am understanding your post correctly. This is nothing more than BMW playing games with numbers and trying to compare apples to apples. They like to eat their cake and have it too.

MP vehicles are not M vehicles. Well except when BMW needs to compete with AMG and show that they can sell almost as many Ms as Mercedes can sell AMGs.

Give me a break BMW. Mercedes made up their mind. Either commit or don't but this in-between stuff...sucks!
Amen.
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      01-11-2019, 06:53 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
What I am saying exactly. If the manufacturer considers them to be part of the M lineup, they are. If you have any problems go and argue with BMW. BMW include m850i in their adverts for M town

I recognise there are different levels of 'M' cars which enthusiasts here are not ready to accept

All M performance cars have their engines modified and tuned by M division as well as their suspensions.
Does your M car VIN start with WBS?
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      01-11-2019, 08:04 PM   #29
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I honestly don't see that many AMG on street, I see a lot of M3/4 here in NYC.
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      01-11-2019, 08:05 PM   #30
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This was expected to me, considering the cyclical and generational turnover...and to add to that, BMW has never been great at marketing to younger people like Audi & Mercedes. Hence, the seemingly forced and recent releases of vehicles marketed to younger audiences such as the X2 and 2 series variants.

Remember the 80s "young-wealth" explosion when younger people wanted to NOT be like their moms and dads and find their own individualism in BMW convertibles and coupes? Well, the turn has been in full-swing ever since. Those buyers are now older and their children would rather drive Audi's and Mercedes & perhaps even Lexus. It makes complete sense from a cultural stand point.

These car companies spend a lot of money internally to anticipate these cultural rifts years ahead of time and try to come up diverse products that don't lose too much heralded tradition for the core former buyers and enthusiasts while trying to anticipate what the young and aspirational buyer will look for in this segment that is viably meaningful and culturally fashionable in the future.

I believe BMW will be back on top in due time based on these patterns & cycles but, if you ask me, Mercedes currently has much more exciting and dynamic products & are leading the way at the moment.
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      01-11-2019, 09:03 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
What I am saying exactly. If the manufacturer considers them to be part of the M lineup, they are.
BMW considers them to be part of the M Performance lineup, not part of the M lineup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
If you have any problems go and argue with BMW. BMW include m850i in their adverts for M town
BMW has a pretty clear distinction between M cars and M Performance cars. M Performance started out as 'is' cars with the M Sport package, now it's just a top of the line model with standard M Sport package. Simple as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
All M performance cars have their engines modified and tuned by M division as well as their suspensions.
M cars are not "tuned" by M division, they are developed by M division and are manufactured under the BMW M GmbH name where the M Performance cars are manufactured by BMW AG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babaikram View Post
As posted by a knowledgeable forum member in a similar thread:

'The first M car based on a production vehicle was the E12 M535i; the engine was the same engine found in the E23 7 Series and E24 6 Series. M modifications were mostly confined to the suspension, although the front brake rotors were 3mm thicker. The interior had Recaro seats and a Motorsport wheel. The exterior had a front airdam, rear lip spoiler, cross-spoke BBS wheels and Motorsport striping. No bespoke engine or body panels. It was definitely not a "real" M car by today's standards'.

Those guys that bought the 'M' cars just for the badge and exclusivity; and not the performance would be sorely disappointed by the current nomenclature. I am sorry for your hurt pride. Please blame BMW not me.
E12 M535i is clearly an M car even by today's standards. Before there was even an M535i, BMW Motorsport GmbH was stuffing big engine into E12 for years as part of their performance program. I mean, they were built in Garching at BMW Motorsport GmbH facility. If you said E28 M535i, you would have a point. E28 M5, M636CSi/M6, E34 M5, E36 M3, E31 850CSi, M Roadster/Coupe, E39 M5, none of them had "bespoke" body panels and are true M cars.

Having an M engine doesn't make a BMW an M car (e.g. E30 320is, E23 745i SA, Z8)
Some true M cars do not have an M engine (1 Series M Coupe, N55 powered M2)
Some M cars are not badged as M (E31 850CSi)
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      01-11-2019, 09:10 PM   #32
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Audi Q5 is a great vehicle. Currently looking at it for the wife, cross-shopping with the X3.
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      01-11-2019, 10:22 PM   #33
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So now you understand why BMW needs to spread the M family across its whole lineup, adding hardcore M and/or M Performance versions to as many models as is commercially viable. The only models to get none are likely the 2er minivan (at least this generation) and the already doomed 6er GT. I actually wouldn't be suprised if, pressured by the competition, BMW would reconsider its 'no 4 cylinder hardcore M on UKL platform' precept and eventually give the 1er hatch a 1M (or M1 for coherence...) version on top of the M135i to fight the A45 and RS3.

The obvious good news is we might well see the return of the M5 Touring and the first ever M3 Touring, admittedly only in Europe and both xDrive, to break Audi's and Mercedes's duopoly on these segments.
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      01-11-2019, 10:47 PM   #34
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Watching M performance and M car owners throw hissy fits over whether M light cars are true m cars has been an endless source of entertainment ever since the 235 was released.
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      01-11-2019, 10:49 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
If those grill sizes keep increasing their numbers are going to look like Audi
I have to agree.....those grilles are getting way too big. Just doesn’t look good at all.
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      01-11-2019, 10:53 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GERMAN M3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
If those grill sizes keep increasing their numbers are going to look like Audi
I have to agree.....those grilles are getting way too big. Just doesn’t look good at all.
I get that they're trying to display presence but having their signature fascia as kidney grills leaves little room for different iterations of it. Especially on the now hideous 7 series lci
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      01-11-2019, 11:16 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
I get that they're trying to display presence but having their signature fascia as kidney grills leaves little room for different iterations of it. Especially on the now hideous 7 series lci
Couldn’t agree with you anymore. Just not sure what they are trying to achieve with those colossol grilles. The X7 looks quite ridiculous if you ask me.
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      01-11-2019, 11:22 PM   #38
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So BMWs true M car sales are about 2% of their total sales (when removing all the M performance models from the 100k M sales )

no wonder BMW are going to ditch the manuals soon
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      01-11-2019, 11:23 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GERMAN M3 View Post
Couldn't agree with you anymore. Just not sure what they are trying to achieve with those colossol grilles. The X7 looks quite ridiculous if you ask me.
The scary thing is with the vision inext concept, the grill is even bigger. I hope they aren't trying to slowly transition into that size because I'll have to jump ship to Merc ASAP
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      01-11-2019, 11:32 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
The scary thing is with the vision inext concept, the grill is even bigger. I hope they aren't trying to slowly transition into that size because I'll have to jump ship to Merc ASAP
Lol, no doubt. I'll stick with them as long as those grilles don't find themselves on the ///M versions/models.
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      01-11-2019, 11:43 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GERMAN M3 View Post
Lol, no doubt. I'll stick with them as long as those grilles don't find themselves on the ///M versions/models.
They will on the new 4 and M4
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      01-11-2019, 11:47 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandridine View Post
Watching M performance and M car owners throw hissy fits over whether M light cars are true m cars has been an endless source of entertainment ever since the 235 was released.
It's just as bad over on the MB forums with the 43's vs the 63's.
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      01-12-2019, 12:50 AM   #43
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I see no reason to think this is good news. Sales/profits does not equal quality.
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      01-12-2019, 01:20 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
If those grill sizes keep increasing their numbers are going to look like Audi
https://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/comments/aexasu/this_is_where_they_are_headed
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