[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I guess you will never see this but I’ll just add a small tidbit. The “No Politics” was added pretty recently. I’m not sure what happened, but I’m guessing the political debate was heating up and a warning was issued.

Here is a question I have posed in this thread numerous times and I’ve never seen an answer. I’ve also never seen it addressed by the government or the industry. It’s possible someone has addressed it in this thread, because I don’t check it every day, but I’m going to guess it probably still hasn’t been addressed. As Efthreeoh mentioned a few posts back in his list of seven issues, if you can’t charge at home BEVs are a pain to own. So, the issue I’m raising the question about is how do the “powers that be”, whose goal is to force EVs on the market within a pretty compressed time frame, propose folks without garages (or at least driveways) are going to charge their EVs? I live in Chicago. My ballpark estimate is at least 50% of automobiles in the city are owned by folks who only have street parking. I actually think when you take into account the number of car owners who live in large condominium buildings with parking garages the percentage is higher than 50% that don’t have access to home charging stations. There are many cities in the U.S. like Chicago and if I recall correctly the projections are that the city populations will be growing a pretty fair amount over the coming years.

If someone has an idea for how charging apparatus can realistically be installed along the street curbs, please do share. I live in a medium size condominium building that is a little over ten years old. Relatively new for the housing stock in Chicago. We have 180 garage parking spaces in two garages that were not designed to accommodate EV charging stations. About six years ago our association, along with the electric company, had a study done to see how much it would cost to add the basic infrastructure that would allow us to be able to accommodate a garage full of EVs. At that time the cost was estimated at $300,000. Just to bring our basic electric infrastructure up to a level where we could accommodate adding charging stations. My rough estimate is the cost of actually adding 180 charging stations would be in the neighborhood of $1,000,000. Just a little side note. We did the infrastructure study because we had a condo owner who bought a Tesla and got the board to agree to let him install a charging station for his car, which he paid for. As part of that process the board asked the electrician doing the installation how many stations our garage could accommodate and they were told it could not accommodate any others with the current infrastructure.

And then an anecdotal story about EVs being a pain if you can’t charge at home. We recently had someone buy a condo in our building who already owned a Tesla. His parking space is right next to mine. I think he was here less than four months before I saw his Tesla was gone. He actually bought an X1. Not long after that I saw him in the garage and asked him about it. He said it had been too difficult to keep the Tesla charged and also he didn’t like how much the performance of the battery was degraded in the winter time. Of course I asked him how he liked the X1 and he loves it and said he has no plans to go back to an EV.

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

The "issue" with this question is that it's not an EV question. It's a political question. The simple EV focused answer is there is no good way to charge an EV if you live in a condo. Period. Just like there is no good place to park my F350 if I lived in my mom’s condo with an enclosed parking garage where it doesn't fit. Or like there's no good way to carry a family of 4 and all their luggage in my Miata.

The real answer to your political question has already been discussed ad nauseam. However I will give my political answer anyways. I don't believe they will be mandated, period. They can say whatever they want but when 2030 or whatever comes around and most people still don't have EVs they will dump it or basically neuter it. Or it might just happen in a couple months. There's still 2 elections between now and then.

I don’t agree with you that my question is political, but I won’t worry about that. I asked the question as a pragmatic issue and you answered that. I appreciate your answer, because you are literally the only person who has ever answered the question. Of course, I guess I have to say I appreciate your answer at least partly because I agree with it. With the EV technology we have today (mainly the battery technology) there is no practical way to charge cars that must be parked on the street and even though infrastructure wise it may be possible to fill parking garages with charging stations, fiscally the cost would be so enormous it borders on being impractical.

So for a very large percentage of car owners in our big cities the technology will have to improve dramatically. I would say more than improve. It will have to change. Batteries will have to be able to be charged within a matter of minutes, much like now with filling a tank with gas, and there will have to be chargers capable of delivering such a charge.

As I mentioned in the original post, I have never heard an industry representative or a political representative even mention this issue in passing. It appears to be totally ignored.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

What percentage of the electricity market you are in does your electricity supplier serve? Most green energy suppliers serve a pretty small percentage of the overall market in which they operate. When I lived in a single family home in Texas I used Green Mountain Energy, but they supplied a very small percentage of the overall electricity supplied to the grid.

They serve all of Snohomish county in Washington State, which has a population of 840K people.

https://www.snopud.com/community-env.../clean-energy/

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dfox

This is false and has been proven many times over. EV's are better for the environment from start to finish, from mining the materials to recycling. Even with a so-so electricity source.


Not sure I agree with this. In some respects, yes. In others no. Many of the old existing cars on the road have very little in emissions controls, and even if they did have it to begin with, they often stop working with zero other symptoms other than what comes out of the tailpipe.


Yes and no. Electricity companies "buy" power from various sources to support their customers. My electricity supplier pays for 97% sustainable energy (mostly hydro) with the remainder coming to help support the peak loads that the sustainable sources can't handle. So while yes, the grid is the grid, my money is going to support sustainable sources, helping them grow rather than increasing demand on coal plants...


I agree on Hybrids. They hit a sweet spot. They're pretty good, they help stretch resources, and they keep things within the comfort level of most people.

But hydro is no friend to the environment says numerous animal protection groups. I don't care, and I'm not offering to debate it, I'm just pointing it out. Somewhere someone finds fault with something, is my point.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

But hydro is no friend to the environment says numerous animal protection groups. I don't care, and I'm not offering to debate it, I'm just pointing it out. Somewhere someone finds fault with something, is my point.

Yeah I don't care either. They talk about tearing down dams here in WA state and I think they're all lunatics.

Although I'd rather just see more nuclear plants and then they can do whatever they want with the dams.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Ramcharger with its ra.ge extended EV setup is going to be this. It's going to be a real paradigm breaker, assuming Ram actually brings it to market, and doesn't price it out of contention.

The other real issue with EV adoption, at some point, a vehicle costs so much that I don't care about the fuel economy savings. Ramcharger is going to be a great example. If a fully loaded Ramcharger is like 100k, even if it matches the performance of a 90k turbo6 truck, I don't care about the potential ROI because it's a 100k truck. I'm not gonna pay 100k to beta test something that has a competitive alternative. Frankly, even with price parity, I'm likely not going to buy the beta test product, because I have more money than time, and so the risk of having to deal with new product issues is of more importance to me than maybe saving money on "fuel".

If i'm looking at cars in the 30k range, then saving money on fuel is gonna matter a lot more to me, because that fuel cost is a larger portion of my income most likely. If you're buying a 100k car, fuel costs shouldn't be factoring into your budget.

My vision is not a range extender architecture, but rather an EV that has on board electricity generation instead of a giant plug-in-the-wall battery. It has a small battery for surge energy requirements.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by dfox

Yeah I don't care either. They talk about tearing down dams here in WA state and I think they're all lunatics.

Although I'd rather just see more nuclear plants and then they can do whatever they want with the dams.

We are mostly on the same page.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

As I mentioned in the original post, I have never heard an industry representative or a political representative even mention this issue in passing. It appears to be totally ignored.

I'm guessing it's the same reason politicians talk in circles when they don't like a question. If you are pro mandates then the answer to the question doesn't help your cause so you can't answer it.

I say it's a political question because if mandates were not a thing it's a none issue. Can't charge at home? Don't buy an EV. Have a family of 4 to lug around? Don't buy a miata.

Now if you have the ability to charge at home, which I fortunately do, I think they can be great vehicles and better than ICE in many ways (at least Tesla which is all I have experience with).

[eugenebmw]

How many expensive lessons ppl need to learn before they know they are stupid Worse, they are burning our tax money. Menlo Park Police Department’s Tesla patrol vehicle pilot finds that Teslas don’t appear to be ‘patrol cars of the future’

https://www.almanacnews.com/police/2...of-the-future/

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I don’t agree with you that my question is political, but I won’t worry about that. I asked the question as a pragmatic issue and you answered that. I appreciate your answer, because you are literally the only person who has ever answered the question. Of course, I guess I have to say I appreciate your answer at least partly because I agree with it. With the EV technology we have today (mainly the battery technology) there is no practical way to charge cars that must be parked on the street and even though infrastructure wise it may be possible to fill parking garages with charging stations, fiscally the cost would be so enormous it borders on being impractical.

So for a very large percentage of car owners in our big cities the technology will have to improve dramatically. I would say more than improve. It will have to change. Batteries will have to be able to be charged within a matter of minutes, much like now with filling a tank with gas, and there will have to be chargers capable of delivering such a charge.

As I mentioned in the original post, I have never heard an industry representative or a political representative even mention this issue in passing. It appears to be totally ignored.

It's ignored because there is not a good answer to the problem. In general, people are not of the mindset to pay more for less service or less convenience.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

My vision is not a range extender architecture, but rather an EV that has on board electricity generation instead of a giant plug-in-the-wall battery. It has a small battery for surge energy requirements.

Ok... But where does the power for the electricity generation come from? The only real option right now is burning hydrocarbons. If we had more nuke plants you could arguably by a hydrogen powder fuel for fuel cells, but reity is, you're burning fuel.

That said, I think a more substantial battery pack makes sense. Something that allows for 30iles of range or so. Then you're gonna have a high percentage of people able to plug in and charge and not need to generate their own electricity onboard. But for that to really matter a whole lot you have to have clean (nuclear) power generation.

[freakystyly]

https://www.motor1.com/news/731650/h...ion-confirmed/

GL finding hydrogen to fill up with... And yes, it has to be produced, stored, handled, etc.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by dfox

First, changing someone's mind is not the point of debates like this, imo. Very view people are changing their mind, they're just here looking for their daily confirmation bias.

Unfortunately the bulk of the "conversations" in this thread are anti-ev clickbait that centers on fires and a lack of chargers. I tried to join in this thread a few times to discuss reasonable topics like what you posted above, but instead just get constantly bombarded with bullshit clickbait and half facts. It's really just not worth the stress.

Nobody has the time to have in-depth conversations like this on a forum, so yes, it just ends up being a circle jerk for the majority of posters.

Facts and counter arguments are now anti ev clickbait.
Goodness these people do not live in reality at all.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

https://www.motor1.com/news/731650/h...ion-confirmed/

GL finding hydrogen to fill up with... And yes, it has to be produced, stored, handled, etc.

So does gasoline.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

So does gasoline.

Yeah, but you can park a gasoline car in a garage.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

https://www.motor1.com/news/731650/h...ion-confirmed/

GL finding hydrogen to fill up with... And yes, it has to be produced, stored, handled, etc.

Pretty sure the 100 people globally that buy these and put them in collections aren't gonna be too worried about it.

[AmuroRay]

Where did my post go?

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Ok... But where does the power for the electricity generation come from? The only real option right now is burning hydrocarbons. If we had more nuke plants you could arguably by a hydrogen powder fuel for fuel cells, but reity is, you're burning fuel.

That said, I think a more substantial battery pack makes sense. Something that allows for 30iles of range or so. Then you're gonna have a high percentage of people able to plug in and charge and not need to generate their own electricity onboard. But for that to really matter a whole lot you have to have clean (nuclear) power generation.

Gasoline, diesel, gasified coal, Efuels (for the carbon-neutral folks), bio diesel, ethanol, to name a few. The Gen1 Volt had a 16kWh battery and had a 38-mile range (most owners got in the 45 range) and the Gen2 had a 18kWh with 53-miles range, so the hybrid you are thinking of was in production over 14 years ago.

But my design is not a plug-in. Hit the start button and drive away, refuel in a few minutes to replenish the 6 gallons of gas needed to drive 400+ miles.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Where did my post go?

Same place a lot of mine went.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by RM7

Yeah, but you can park a gasoline car in a garage.

But the H2 boils off no matter what.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

But the H2 boils off no matter what.

Sure, but in an enclosed space its an extreme explosion hazard (because it has to gas off). This is why hydrogen vehicles cannot be parked in a garage. Hydrogen is crazy impractical for small scale/autos.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by RM7

Sure, but in an enclosed space its an extreme explosion hazard (because it has to gas off). This is why hydrogen vehicles cannot be parked in a garage. Hydrogen is crazy impractical for small scale/autos.

Agree. I was discussing more of the impracticality of H2 as a fuel because it doesn't store very well. I guess one could install a liquid nitrogen tank and set up a cryogenic cooling system to keep the H2 cold so it wouldn't boil off so easily. But then that's getting a bit complicated...

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Gasoline, diesel, gasified coal, Efuels (for the carbon-neutral folks), bio diesel, ethanol, to name a few. The Gen1 Volt had a 16kWh battery and had a 38-mile range (most owners got in the 45 range) and the Gen2 had a 18kWh with 53-miles range, so the hybrid you are thinking of was in production over 14 years ago.

But my design is not a plug-in. Hit the start button and drive away, refuel in a few minutes to replenish the 6 gallons of gas needed to drive 400+ miles.

There is no reason to not have a plug in though. If you never use it no big deal. If you do, cool that's less gasoline burned.