[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

Sometimes the 'driving experience' is simply that the car looks good.

We can respectfully although completely disagree on this. My opinion is that this perspective is part of what has deteriorated the brand over the decades.

Originally Posted by toddwalton

The majority of what you're wishfully projecting on the new 4GC is spot-on identical to what the GT is. BMW makes a lot (too many) utility vehicles as it is. Gran Coupe's are their fun cars. The 4 Series is their fun series. The GT was a weak seller. I can't see BMW ruining their edgy 4 Series GC of the future in a bad attempt to make it into another (yawn) utility vehicle.

It's not "all or nothing". No one expects it to be a GT. My prior point is that the CLAR platform may allow them to enhance the interior space. The current GC rear seat is quite limited. I don't have the numbers handy, but I recall conversation that the new/current 3 sedan is larger than the F version replaced. Therefore, one would expect that the GC would also be enlarged versus the F version which would make it more useful. It is not reasonable to expect that those of us who prefer cars, and the GT is a car, must convert to tall utility vehicles. The GT was a weak seller because, indeed, there are many people now in the brand who most highly prize appearance.

[BavMachina]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

Sometimes the 'driving experience' is simply that the car looks good. Especially for the typical 4GC driver who is 40+ with kids and an SUV looking for a sportier version of the 3 Series he's driven since forever. Wants a coupe, has kids, the 4GC is a dream come true.

I remember the first time I saw a 4 series coupe, my reaction was it would be my next car if I didn’t have kids. The first time I saw a 4 series GC, it was as if BMW was listening and I knew that would be my next car. After 11 wonderful years behind the wheel of a 3 series, fun to try something different, with added utility and great looks.

[dr_frankfurter]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

We can respectfully although completely disagree on this. My opinion is that this perspective is part of what has deteriorated the brand over the decades.



It's not "all or nothing". No one expects it to be a GT. My prior point is that the CLAR platform may allow them to enhance the interior space. The current GC rear seat is quite limited. I don't have the numbers handy, but I recall conversation that the new/current 3 sedan is larger than the F version replaced. Therefore, one would expect that the GC would also be enlarged versus the F version which would make it more useful. It is not reasonable to expect that those of us who prefer cars, and the GT is a car, must convert to tall utility vehicles. The GT was a weak seller because, indeed, there are many people now in the brand who most highly prize appearance.

"I see you're a man of culture as well". The GT is definitely not as sleek and sexy as the GC, but if you squint hard enough, you can see some GT in the Tesla Model 3, and people are eating up the M3 no problem. I love my GT because I can fit enough luggage in the trunk for 4 adults, they can all comfortably get in and out like an SUV, and all 4 passengers have enough legroom and headroom to put a 5 series to shame. I would've liked to see the 3 and 6 series GT make a comeback in the states as an EV, and maybe even kill off some SUV sales in the process. A lift-back revolution would be nice to see.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by dr_frankfurter

"I see you're a man of culture as well". The GT is definitely not as sleek and sexy as the GC, but if you squint hard enough, you can see some GT in the Tesla Model 3, and people are eating up the M3 no problem. I love my GT because I can fit enough luggage in the trunk for 4 adults, they can all comfortably get in and out like an SUV, and all 4 passengers have enough legroom and headroom to put a 5 series to shame. I would've liked to see the 3 and 6 series GT make a comeback in the states as an EV, and maybe even kill off some SUV sales in the process. A lift-back revolution would be nice to see.

It does just work so damn well that I can overlook a bit of bulkiness at the C-pillar. The driving experience is of a car, not an SUV, and it serves so many purposes. When my bike got a flat, just folded down the seats and in it went. Otherwise, people are astounded at the back seat comfort. Any luggage/shopping is handled with ease. It's really just a swoopier station wagon, which BMW, in it's "wisdom" has denied us having in the U.S. By the time I bought it off a 3 year lease with only 16k miles on it, with a huge BMW incentive against the residual, all payments together for lease and purchase totaled an equivalent 20% discount from MSRP. Best deal I've ever had for a car....zero problems. Keeping it until an i4 or comparable EV shows it's ready to be a replacement. Hoping BMW has created a reasonable rear seat and cargo package for the CLAR platform G26.

[dr_frankfurter]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

It does just work so damn well that I can overlook a bit of bulkiness at the C-pillar. The driving experience is of a car, not an SUV, and it serves so many purposes. When my bike got a flat, just folded down the seats and in it went. Otherwise, people are astounded at the back seat comfort. Any luggage/shopping is handled with ease. It's really just a swoopier station wagon, which BMW, in it's "wisdom" has denied us having in the U.S. By the time I bought it off a 3 year lease with only 16k miles on it, with a huge BMW incentive against the residual, all payments together for lease and purchase totaled an equivalent 20% discount from MSRP. Best deal I've ever had for a car....zero problems. Keeping it until an i4 or comparable EV shows it's ready to be a replacement. Hoping BMW has created a reasonable rear seat and cargo package for the CLAR platform G26.

Me and 3 passengers went from LA to Big Bear Lake in my GT, roughly a 2 hour journey, 5 hours in heavy traffic on the way back. Not one complaint. Everybody's luggage AND 80% of the groceries for 10 people for a 3 day trip fit in the trunk, with only 2 small duffle bags placed in the center seat. The GT recipe with a high range EV would be the perfect modern BMW to give Tesla a run for their money. Let's hope the i4 and even the 4GC fills that role without compromising too much in passenger comfort.

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by BavMachina

I remember the first time I saw a 4 series coupe, my reaction was it would be my next car if I didn’t have kids. The first time I saw a 4 series GC, it was as if BMW was listening and I knew that would be my next car. After 11 wonderful years behind the wheel of a 3 series, fun to try something different, with added utility and great looks.

Exactly right.

All those 3's and all those Honda Odyssey's, the years went by and the kids were a bit older and dad could finally get his sexy coupe back. The 4GC was an absolute dream. I had two of them before grabbing the last 4 hardtop convertible as a changeup.

I'm hoping they don't ruin a good thing. They ruined the 'vert. They'd better not ruin the GC.

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

We can respectfully although completely disagree on this. My opinion is that this perspective is part of what has deteriorated the brand over the decades.

The GT was a weak seller because, indeed, there are many people now in the brand who most highly prize appearance.

No need to have the performance debate; its 2021 and anyone can have any configuration of any type of vehicle via the BMW brand and create a performance beast if they so desire. Even moderately optioned these cars are rockets with great driving dynamics.

And there is nothing wrong with prizing appearance. There comes a point where BMW has put enough into the performance for the above-average dad commuter where it's a non-issue and what then becomes important is the way the car looks. The 4GC is one of BMW's best looking cars in the current generation and needs to continue. If we want more passenger room, we'd get a 5. If we want more utility we'd get a GT. We don't. We want something low and wide and coupe-like. That's the mojo of the 4GC.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

If we want more utility we'd get a GT.

If a) BMW hadn't dropped the GT, and b) offered it as the next EV, I'd be glad to take one.

As neither of those conditions apply, the GC has the task of satisfying a wider range of buyers in the showroom than it did previously, including when it arrives as the new i4.

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

If a) BMW hadn't dropped the GT, and b) offered it as the next EV, I'd be glad to take one.

As neither of those conditions apply, the GC has the task of satisfying a wider range of buyers in the showroom than it did previously, including when it arrives as the new i4.

There are thousands of GT's available as CPO, throngs of them very low mileage, you could buy two of them, put one in storage, and be good for a decade and a half.

The GC succeeds because it looks so damned good. It wasn't purchased because of its utility. If we wanted utility, we'd have just bought a GT or an X3. If we wanted maximum rear passenger comfort, we'd have stuck with our boring 3 Series. The mojo of the GC is that it allows traditional 3 Series owners to trade utility and rear passenger comfort for something more important- sexy design. It's like an M-Sport package atop an M-Sport package.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

There are thousands of GT's available as CPO, throngs of them very low mileage, you could buy two of them, put one in storage, and be good for a decade and a half.

The GC succeeds because it looks so damned good. It wasn't purchased because of its utility. If we wanted utility, we'd have just bought a GT or an X3. If we wanted maximum rear passenger comfort, we'd have stuck with our boring 3 Series. The mojo of the GC is that it allows traditional 3 Series owners to trade utility and rear passenger comfort for something more important- sexy design. It's like an M-Sport package atop an M-Sport package.

Having the chat is fine, but we are going a bit in circles. I already have a low-mileage GT, powered by the last ICE I intend to buy. My next car will be an EV, a car and not and SUV, and from BMW...and that is the i4, which is the G26 next-gen GC with an EV powertrain. There are no other BMW EV cars in the near future. If the i4 doesn't satisfy, the alternative may be a Mach E or Polestar 2. I am hoping not to have to compromise too much with the i4/GC on useful space, and it's likely the car will be larger than the current generation. How well they deal with design will be known when all the camoflauge is finally removed. We may both be disappointed or pleased for opposite reasons.

The assertion of "sexy design" being more important than interior room may be your personal preference, but it is by no means an objective truth. Some see these minor variations we are discussing in the shape of the sheetmetal as the most superficial and least decision-affecting attribute of a car, given the are all generally within "acceptable". Unless you have BMW's internal market research, you do not know how many purchased due to style versus the hatch functionality, as compared to, for example, the limiting trunk design of a 3 Series sedan.

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I am hoping not to have to compromise too much with the i4/GC on useful space, and it's likely the car will be larger than the current generation. How well they deal with design will be known when all the camoflauge is finally removed. We may both be disappointed or pleased for opposite reasons.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. As witnessed with the F36 BMW was able to achieve both and I hope they can do likewise this time.

Originally Posted by Sportstick

The assertion of "sexy design" being more important than interior room may be your personal preference, but it is by no means an objective truth. Some see these minor variations we are discussing in the shape of the sheetmetal as the most superficial and least decision-affecting attribute of a car, given the are all generally within "acceptable". Unless you have BMW's internal market research, you do not know how many purchased due to style versus the hatch functionality, as compared to, for example, the limiting trunk design of a 3 Series sedan.

Similarly, unless you have BMW's G26 published dimensions it's all a matter of your personal opinions based on spy photos. BMW's design direction seems to support the theory that the F36 was intended to be a better looking coupe-like version of the F30 for those bored with the traditional sedan. The reason the GC and the GT were distinctly different cars is because they have distinctly different consumers.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

Similarly, unless you have BMW's G26 published dimensions it's all a matter of your personal opinions based on spy photos.

That is true, but I am also influenced by this sedan-to-sedan or coupe-to-coupe information for the new CLAR platform models. It would seem reasonable that the growth would be shared by the GC over its predecessor. I just hope it shows up inside.

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1540972

https://www.carscoops.com/2020/06/ho...s-predecessor/

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

That is true, but I am also influenced by this sedan-to-sedan or coupe-to-coupe information for the new CLAR platform models. It would seem reasonable that the growth would be shared by the GC over its predecessor. I just hope it shows up inside.

It’s all about proportions. If the new GC is wider and longer then getting proportionally taller isn’t noticeable in the context of the overall design.

As BMW stated, the 4 Series isn’t supposed to be about utility or practicality. It’s supposed to be about boldness and sportiness. That’s what I expect from the G26.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

As BMW stated, the 4 Series isn’t supposed to be about utility or practicality. It’s supposed to be about boldness and sportiness. That’s what I expect from the G26.

I'd be interested to see where that statement was made.

We can agree to disagree that BMW accepted the incremental cost, weight, investment, and development time for a hatchback, not easily discerned unless opened, for improved practicality and functional reasons vs a restrictive conventional trunk as compared to a 3 Series. Otherwise, they could have saved a bundle and just made it a trunk like the 2 and the 8. C&D just stated the following:

"As before, the Gran Coupe will be the four-door model in the 4-series lineup. It's hard to tell from these photos, but it appears to continue with a hatchback opening in the rear that should offer more practicality compared with the 3-series sedan's trunk."

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...eries%20lineup.

If your theory was correct, please explain why a hatch and not a trunk like the other two Gran Coupes in the showroom? That decision did not come "cheap" to them.

[M2Cmtl]

If the GC looses the hatch, not sure what the point is vs the 3er. Especially since you have to deal with the great front end...

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I'd be interested to see where that statement was made.

"Symbolizes the essence of a modern and highly emotional coupe at the very core of BMW. A progressive and confident interpretation of our heritage. An everyday dream car. From now on, the number 4 will stand for an even more self-confident and expressive series of products. All models will show a complete differentiation to the current 3 series as we believe in the different individual characters of our customers. A daring and confident identity. A fast outline. BMW proportions in their most modern form. A true brand-shaper."

-- Domagoj Dukec, Head of BMW Design

Originally Posted by Sportstick

If your theory was correct, please explain why a hatch and not a trunk like the other two Gran Coupes in the showroom? That decision did not come "cheap" to them.

BMW has been trying to differentiate the 4 from the 3 and the liftback seemed like a good way to do that. Direct competition from Audi as well. I appreciate the feature, but it's not a prerequisite. I just like the way it looks. Low and wide, it's a coupe with two small doors carved out for the brats who took dad's fun away for a decade.

The 4 Series is the range where BMW steps out of its 3 Series groove and the recent redesign and words from the head of design make it clear that there isn't going to be some sort of turtle-like GT butt bolted onto their sexiest 4 Series variant.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

BMW has been trying to differentiate the 4 from the 3 and the liftback seemed like a good way to do that. Direct competition from Audi as well. I appreciate the feature, but it's not a prerequisite. I just like the way it looks. Low and wide, it's a coupe with two small doors carved out for the brats who took dad's fun away for a decade.

The 4 Series is the range where BMW steps out of its 3 Series groove and the recent redesign and words from the head of design make it clear that there isn't going to be some sort of turtle-like GT butt bolted onto their sexiest 4 Series variant.

You agree that the hatch differentiates the vehicle, but it is all but invisible except when momentarily opened when parked. That same roofline could have been achieved with a lower cost, lighter weight conventional trunk. Therefore, the differentiation is the function, the point we've been discussing for several posts.

The BMW Marketing language for a 2 door coupe hardly applies to a 4 door, even a swoopy one, with doors that are not at all small and that full size adults can use. In the current generation, the problem is not the door size, but the legroom once inside.

This is the most useful document as to BMW's raison d'etre for the car. They cannot get through a paragraph without highlighting the functionality. Of course they want it to be distinctive and attractive, but it exists as a unique vehicle to serve a functional purpose, as they repeatedly point out.

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...pe?language=en

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

You agree that the hatch differentiates the vehicle, but it is all but invisible except when momentarily opened when parked.

Yes, in my mind that's the greatest feature. The fact that BMW made a liftback that looks like it has a trunk. So it doesn't have that awkward Audi A3 hatchback turtle shell convention. The functionality is nice but it's the execution that's brilliant. Utility of a liftback, the look of a coupe, just fantastic. Very similar to the idea that it's a sedan made out of a coupe. The GC is a chameleon. It's magic.

Originally Posted by Sportstick

That same roofline could have been achieved with a lower cost, lighter weight conventional trunk. Therefore, the differentiation is the function, the point we've been discussing for several posts.

No, as stated earlier, the differentiation is the concealment of the function. It's the best disguised liftback in automotive history. The shocked looks people made when they see the whole back of the car lift up, its incredible.

Originally Posted by Sportstick

The BMW Marketing language for a 2 door coupe hardly applies to a 4 door, even a swoopy one, with doors that are not at all small and that full size adults can use. In the current generation, the problem is not the door size, but the legroom once inside.

Well, if you're not a dad and just want to look sporty to impress your 30-something single friends, both the 4 Coupe and the 4 GC are dumb cars, they both inconvenience grown passengers markedly. The 4 GC is for that dad who has kids and wants his coupe back. The doors and legroom suit a child under the age of 14 swimmingly.

Frankly, I don't understand why BMW even makes the 2-door coupe anymore, in fact I can see a future where they only make the 4-door coupe. 2 Series it makes sense, not so much the 4 Series. The 4 is the size of the old 5, it keeps growing, its proportions for the 2-door already look goofy with that enormous rear quarter panel. It doesn't feel like a coupe. It feels like a sedan that's strangely lost two doors.

Originally Posted by Sportstick

This is the most useful document as to BMW's raison d'etre for the car. They cannot get through a paragraph without highlighting the functionality. Of course they want it to be distinctive and attractive, but it exists as a unique vehicle to serve a functional purpose, as they repeatedly point out.

Like I said, BMW has struggled to differentiate the 4GC from the 3 Sedan. When it first came out, it was a YouTube joke that they all cracked "it's the 4 door version of the 2 door coupe which is a 2 door version of the 4 door sedan", the conversation was around why BMW would release such a seemingly redundant car.

You contend that the 4GC exists for its liftback utility and I contend that the 4GC exists for its sexy-as-fk styling. I think both can be true. My son's goalie equipment thanked me every day I used the liftback, but the stares I got from jealous dad's with this sleek new variant made me really happy. After years of being in the same old 3 Series like everyone else, the GC was a breath of fresh air. When my lease is up on my F33 I expect to be back in a G26. I don't think BMW is going to screw it up. It's going to replace the G22 when they drop the 2-door like they dropped the manual transmission.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

Yes, in my mind that's the greatest feature. The fact that BMW made a liftback that looks like it has a trunk. So it doesn't have that awkward Audi A3 hatchback turtle shell convention. The functionality is nice but it's the execution that's brilliant. Utility of a liftback, the look of a coupe, just fantastic. Very similar to the idea that it's a sedan made out of a coupe. The GC is a chameleon. It's magic.



No, as stated earlier, the differentiation is the concealment of the function. It's the best disguised liftback in automotive history. The shocked looks people made when they see the whole back of the car lift up, its incredible.



Well, if you're not a dad and just want to look sporty to impress your 30-something single friends, both the 4 Coupe and the 4 GC are dumb cars, they both inconvenience grown passengers markedly. The 4 GC is for that dad who has kids and wants his coupe back. The doors and legroom suit a child under the age of 14 swimmingly.

Frankly, I don't understand why BMW even makes the 2-door coupe anymore, in fact I can see a future where they only make the 4-door coupe. 2 Series it makes sense, not so much the 4 Series. The 4 is the size of the old 5, it keeps growing, its proportions for the 2-door already look goofy with that enormous rear quarter panel. It doesn't feel like a coupe. It feels like a sedan that's strangely lost two doors.



Like I said, BMW has struggled to differentiate the 4GC from the 3 Sedan. When it first came out, it was a YouTube joke that they all cracked "it's the 4 door version of the 2 door coupe which is a 2 door version of the 4 door sedan", the conversation was around why BMW would release such a seemingly redundant car.

You contend that the 4GC exists for its liftback utility and I contend that the 4GC exists for its sexy-as-fk styling. I think both can be true. My son's goalie equipment thanked me every day I used the liftback, but the stares I got from jealous dad's with this sleek new variant made me really happy. After years of being in the same old 3 Series like everyone else, the GC was a breath of fresh air. When my lease is up on my F33 I expect to be back in a G26. I don't think BMW is going to screw it up. It's going to replace the G22 when they drop the 2-door like they dropped the manual transmission.

Well, this has been fun, but I think we've run the course and each wound up exactly where we started! This is a great example of why eyewitness testimony is so fraught with error. We both look at the identical object, and through our respective filters, have different interpretations of what we saw. With my youngest at 37 years old, I don't have the "dad" issue sending me to find "sexy" at this stage! I either have it or I don't and any car won't change that!. I just still prefer how BMWs drive to alternatives, as I have since my first new one...1977 320i...two doors, trunk. Added to that is how well the GT functionality fits my practical needs and hoping G26 BEV (i4) does the same. Meanwhile, my 2 Series is my entertaining 6MT RWD "toy". I am long past caring about anyone else's opinion of how they look. Possible you may join me decades ahead?

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Well, this has been fun, but I think we've run the course and each wound up exactly where we started! This is a great example of why eyewitness testimony is so fraught with error. We both look at the identical object, and through our respective filters, have different interpretations of what we saw. With my youngest at 37 years old, I don't have the "dad" issue sending me to find "sexy" at this stage! I either have it or I don't and any car won't change that!. I just still prefer how BMWs drive to alternatives, as I have since my first new one...1977 320i...two doors, trunk. Added to that is how well the GT functionality fits my practical needs and hoping G26 BEV (i4) does the same. Meanwhile, my 2 Series is my entertaining 6MT RWD "toy". I am long past caring about anyone else's opinion of how they look. Possible you may join me decades ahead?

Hear hear, Sportstick, let us end this as gentlemen and friends. My 8 year old says 'hello' to your 37 year old.

First car I drove after getting my license was my dad's brand new 1980 740i, what a car. My mom had an E36 after my dad passed, brought back great memories and for the last 17 years I've been in E46, E90, E92, F30, F36, and F33's, an X5 and an X7 for the wife, leasing is quite fun with a new BMW every 3 years.

Let us hope that the G26 is all the utility you desire and all the sexy metal I desire. Cheers!

[cb804]

Any more gran coupe news? It's been pretty quiet here.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by cb804

Any more gran coupe news? It's been pretty quiet here.

The i4 will be revealed tomorrow so that should pretty much reveal a lot of the 4GC's design/size outside of the electric aspects of the vehicle.