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      12-15-2020, 06:52 PM   #1
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Mach E a Worthy Cross-Consideration vs i4?

One of many generally positive reviews published today. I've never had nor considered a Ford of any type, and they certainly have had their quality issues over time (transmissions, engines, etc.) but this program and the reviews are interesting. Does a vehicle that represents them "betting the farm" on their EV debut/future deserve different consideration?

https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...uv/3873670001/
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      12-15-2020, 07:52 PM   #2
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It does seem like a really nice vehicle, I've watched a few of the reviews for the car and they all seem to be full of praise. Definitely worth a look in my opinion.

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      12-16-2020, 08:17 AM   #3
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I agree although when my BMW was being repaired at a collision center, I had a mustang as a rental and it was obvious why it cost half of what my car cost. Hopefully the new car is better.
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      12-16-2020, 10:35 AM   #4
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I have never been a fan of Ford. But rather than spew venom as many do against companies they do not favor, I will give credit where credit is due.

It appears that they may have produced something that could save the company from bankruptcy. Unfortunately, with the pandemic (auto loan delinquencies), the F150 being their only profitable vehicle and their billion$ in debt, the Mach E may be too little too late.

The car itself does appear to offer quite a lot for the money. From the videos the only complaint I have (living in Florida) is the large sunroof w/ no way to shade it. Otherwise, the vehicle meets most of my needs (although a 325-350 mile range would be my "sweet spot" preference).

Not knowing what the other variants of the Mach E will offer (as far as range goes), I start to wince when I see price tags going north of $50K for a Ford.

I will include it on my short list of EV's to check out before I buy (likely 2022 model year). I do like it more than the Polestar. I am however holding out hope that the BMW i4 will check all the boxes for my next EV.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did spend some time on the Ford (Build you own) website and am impressed with the features offered on the "Premium" model (which would be my choice if ordering one). A big "pros" for this vehicle is the $7500 fed tax credit. That takes the $47K "Premium" model down to $39.5K. I also like the dash layout over the Tesla Model 3 with more physical buttons and the split screen set up.

There are couple of things that preclude me from going all in on the Mach E (or the BMW i4) at this point over a Tesla Model 3. Battery Tech being the big one. Tesla appears to have a big lead in battery tech with constantly improving driving ranges and longevity going forward. Tesla's advantage of manufacturing their own batteries would seem to put competitors (that rely on third party suppliers) at a disadvantage.
https://electrek.co/2020/11/10/tesla...ack-new-cells/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/teslas-bat...ry?id=73222745

This could change in the future if third party battery suppliers leapfrog Tesla. However, there isn't the same compelling need to do that since these suppliers will always have a market for whatever they sell as the EV vehicle manufacturers will always need their batteries. Since Tesla builds their batteries for their cars, there will always be an incentive to improve ranges and longevity and innovate with super/ultra capacitors, million mile batteries, etc., thus making their cars a better choice. My sweet spot for range is 350 miles (I would settle for a firm 325 EPA - so "come on BMW!" .

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      12-16-2020, 11:06 AM   #5
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From the videos the only complaint I have (living in Florida) is the large sunroof w/ no way to shade it.
I have no particular need to look up and am also concerned about the heat in our southwest desert location. I think the darkest available full-limo window tint film on the sunroof glass would do a good job from my experience on side windows with legal darkness levels.
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      12-16-2020, 11:12 AM   #6
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I have never been a fan of Ford. But rather than spew venom as many do against companies they do not favor, I will give credit where credit is due.

It appears that they may have produced something that could save the company from bankruptcy. Unfortunately, with the pandemic (auto loan delinquencies), the F150 being their only profitable vehicle and their billion$ in debt, the Mach E may be too little too late.

The car itself does appear to offer quite a lot for the money. From the videos the only complaint I have (living in Florida) is the large sunroof w/ no way to shade it. Otherwise, the vehicle meets most of my needs (although a 325-350 mile range would be my "sweet spot" preference).

Not knowing what the other variants of the Mach E will offer (as far as range goes), I start to wince when I see price tags going north of $50K for a Ford.

I will include it on my short list of EV's to check out before I buy (likely 2022 model year). I do like it more than the Polestar. I am however holding out hope that the BMW i4 will check all the boxes for my next EV.
Come on. Ford has many profitable vehicles starting with the incredible sales volume of the F-150 truck. They sell approximately 900,000 of them every year.
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      12-16-2020, 04:58 PM   #7
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Not going to debate, but research Ford and their financials. Things do not look good going forward.
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      01-24-2021, 11:43 AM   #8
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Not going to debate, but research Ford and their financials. Things do not look good going forward.
I am not long Ford, but this is an exaggeration. Are you shorting the stock? F is up probably 30 to 40 percent since this comment BTW.
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      01-26-2021, 10:00 AM   #9
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I am not long Ford, but this is an exaggeration. Are you shorting the stock? F is up probably 30 to 40 percent since this comment BTW.
I don't play the stock market, so no I'm not shorting anyone.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but predictions of ICE sales waning due to cities, states and countries pushing for EV's puts many automakers in a bind. Predictions have been that people looking for a new vehicle may hold off buying an ICE car to see what the EV market has to offer. This puts further financial strain on automakers like Ford and GM. Ford may, with the Mach E as an attractive alternative to the Tesla Model 3 and Y, see some improved profitability going forward. I do hope so.

Do a search "Is Ford in Financial trouble" and see what pops up. they are heavily leveraged. GM is not doing great either. Again, I really don't care one way or the other. I'm not in the bag for Tesla, BMW, or any other automaker.
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      01-26-2021, 05:29 PM   #10
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IMO, the Mach e is another Tesla wannabe, right down to the oversized iPad. It will sell because of its heritage name and it is a reasonable value. It will not however be the same level of quality or refinement as the i4 which. I don’t even consider them to be comparable in design segments.

Ford is no where near bankruptcy because it has been the light truck leader in the US forever. The F-150 alone can keep the company afloat for quite a while as they catch up with the EV growing market.

The ICE is dying a slow death and every manufacturer is committed to the EV, including Ford, and especially GM, which appears to be going all in, and GM stock is soaring on the commitment. BMW seems to be making a smart play to integrate their ICE and EV products and transition as the market progresses.
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      01-26-2021, 05:38 PM   #11
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IMO, the Mach e is another Tesla wannabe, right down to the oversized iPad. It will sell because of its heritage name and it is a reasonable value. It will not however be the same level of quality or refinement as the i4 which.
But, if someone found the i4 wasn't what they hoped, the Mach E may make a great alternative before descending to the depths of Tesla quality. Lucid starts at $69k and only has a less versatile trunk design. Polestar 2 could be a player, but seems a bit small. Right now, for my EV purchase, my consideration sequence is:

i4
Mach E
Polestar 2

No Lucid Air, No Tesla.
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      01-26-2021, 09:01 PM   #12
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Lucid technology is very very cool, but the design is too “California,” but that’s their home and initial market.
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      01-27-2021, 09:23 AM   #13
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The fact that Ford releases a crossover with the Mustang name shows they have no idea as to how to approach electrification. Nobody is going to walk into a dealership and be thrilled about getting an electric Mustang, especially one that looks like an SUV. I'm sorry but that's not a good marketing ploy.

Now I know some might say "we have to make the kids like this". Here's the deal, without autonomy it's a waste of time and money. The appeal of Tesla is the software which is why it's valued as a tech company. Ford has to fire some executives and bring in new blood that doesn't bastardize heritage but creates new engaging product lines.
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      01-27-2021, 09:27 AM   #14
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The fact that Ford releases a crossover with the Mustang name shows they have no idea as to how to approach electrification. Nobody is going to walk into a dealership and be thrilled about getting an electric Mustang, especially one that looks like an SUV. I'm sorry but that's not a good marketing ploy.

Now I know some might say "we have to make the kids like this". Here's the deal, without autonomy it's a waste of time and money. The appeal of Tesla is the software which is why it's valued as a tech company. Ford has to fire some executives and bring in new blood that doesn't bastardize heritage but creates new engaging product lines.
As much as I hate the name, I actually do think it will work in their favor.
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      01-27-2021, 09:56 AM   #15
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The fact that Ford releases a crossover with the Mustang name shows they have no idea as to how to approach electrification. Nobody is going to walk into a dealership and be thrilled about getting an electric Mustang, especially one that looks like an SUV. I'm sorry but that's not a good marketing ploy.
Respectfully disagree and am sensing a non-sequitur in the first sentence. What is the proximate causation of the eventual name chosen on how they approach the science/technology of electrification? They could drag up the "Galaxie 500" name from the past and it would not change how they approached designing and manufacturing their batteries and motors. It might change some of the sheetmetal design, but not the powertrain.

As to what "nobody" will do, what is your source for this beyond personal opinion? From working with Ford in the past, I can assure you they have a binder full of market research on the subject that informed their final nomenclature decision.
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      01-27-2021, 10:32 AM   #16
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Quote:
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Respectfully disagree and am sensing a non-sequitur in the first sentence. What is the proximate causation of the eventual name chosen on how they approach the science/technology of electrification? They could drag up the "Galaxie 500" name from the past and it would not change how they approached designing and manufacturing their batteries and motors. It might change some of the sheetmetal design, but not the powertrain.

As to what "nobody" will do, what is your source for this beyond personal opinion? From working with Ford in the past, I can assure you they have a binder full of market research on the subject that informed their final nomenclature decision.
It's exactly their lack of technology that is causing them to fall back on the Mustang name. It's the same exact scenario as with what's going on with the M3/M4 marketing campaign. How many mid to late 20 year olds will really buy a 450-500HP monster for 70-80K? Why would they when they can have a Tesla take them to their destination while they Tik Tok lip sync a Billie Eilish song? Why would they when so many are saddled with student loan debt, barely hanging on and on the verge of psychological collapse in the middle of a pandemic?

Ford has no technology, nothing close to what Tesla has and not even what Volkswagen group or BMW is researching. They are going to try to electrify the F-150 eventually as well because that's Ford.

What exactly has Ford's market research proven? Tesla is barely profitable as a company and is a much loved stock by millennials. The younger generation uses emotion to make their decision, and they care about the future. Ford will always be associated with corruption and being owned by the Globalist elite. Ford is the old dad that tries to be hip but can't get away from watching TruTV for 4 hours every night.

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      01-27-2021, 11:10 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaptainKloss View Post
It's exactly their lack of technology that is causing them to fall back on the Mustang name. It's the same exact scenario as with what's going on with the M3/M4 marketing campaign. How many mid to late 20 year olds will really buy a 450-500HP monster for 70-80K? Why would they when they can have a Tesla take them to their destination while they Tik Tok lip sync a Billie Eilish song? Why would they when so many are saddled with student loan debt, barely hanging on and on the verge of psychological collapse in the middle of a pandemic?

Ford has no technology, nothing close to what Tesla has and not even what Volkswagen group or BMW is researching. They are going to try to electrify the F-150 eventually as well because that's Ford.

What exactly has Ford's market research proven? Tesla is barely profitable as a company and is a much loved stock by millennials. The younger generation uses emotion to make their decision, and they care about the future. Ford will always be associated with corruption and being owned by the Globalist elite. Ford is the old dad that tries to be hip but can't get away from watching TruTV for 4 hours every night.
I don't think anyone challenges that Tesla is leading the industry for battery and powertrain technology. It's just the rest of the surrounding car that some find unacceptable although others find it to be ok, as sales have shown (despite much buyer's remorse shown in owner quality report data). The issue with electrification is recharging time and range. For many who have garages, overnight charging eliminates much if not all of that concern for daily use.

The statement that Ford has "no technology" is clearly not correct. They may not be at the same level as Tesla (as no one else is either), but this is not an "all or none" situation. The gap is smaller than some perceive and shrinking continuously. Consumers will figure out the overall balance of attributes vs. needs and the market will speak.

As to what Ford's market research has proven, it was used to confirm nomenclature selection and likely as well, final surface theme for bodystyle. Ford does very little without confirming with consumer input from my experience.

As far as the "younger generation" making decisions based on emotion, that is fundamentally true for all age cohorts, although some cloak it better behind intellectual alibis better than others to make it sound more rational. However, within each generation, including Millennials and Gen Z (mostly too young to afford new cars), there is much psychographic diversity, so monolithic descriptions almost always fall short.

The mean age for the U.S. industry for new vehicle buyers has ranged from 53-55 in recent years. There are few buyers in their 20s due to lack of discretionary income. Most of that cohort is buying used cars, and the arrival of companies such as Carvana, etc. have responded to that need.

I am not understanding the "globalist elite" ownership assertion. Ford is publicly traded on the NYSE.

Lastly, I doubt the assertion that Ford will "always be associated with corruption". By whom? To what is this corruption related? They have had some awful quality outcomes and management decisions along the way....is that to what you refer as "corruption"? Stock manipulation? Bribery? What is this suggestion about? If you query 100 people randomly sampled, you suggest 100% will make this association? I doubt the figure will exceed a single digit percentage, but I am also speculating.

I don't and never did work for Ford. I've never owned a Ford product in my lifetime. But, I have and do work in the automobile industry, both OEM and Tier I supplier, for full disclosure.
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      01-27-2021, 11:51 AM   #18
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I don't think anyone challenges that Tesla is leading the industry for battery and powertrain technology. It's just the rest of the surrounding car that some find unacceptable although others find it to be ok, as sales have shown (despite much buyer's remorse shown in owner quality report data). The issue with electrification is recharging time and range. For many who have garages, overnight charging eliminates much if not all of that concern for daily use.

The statement that Ford has "no technology" is clearly not correct. They may not be at the same level as Tesla (as no one else is either), but this is not an "all or none" situation. The gap is smaller than some perceive and shrinking continuously. Consumers will figure out the overall balance of attributes vs. needs and the market will speak.

As to what Ford's market research has proven, it was used to confirm nomenclature selection and likely as well, final surface theme for bodystyle. Ford does very little without confirming with consumer input from my experience.

As far as the "younger generation" making decisions based on emotion, that is fundamentally true for all age cohorts, although some cloak it better behind intellectual alibis better than others to make it sound more rational. However, within each generation, including Millennials and Gen Z (mostly too young to afford new cars), there is much psychographic diversity, so monolithic descriptions almost always fall short.

The mean age for the U.S. industry for new vehicle buyers has ranged from 53-55 in recent years. There are few buyers in their 20s due to lack of discretionary income. Most of that cohort is buying used cars, and the arrival of companies such as Carvana, etc. have responded to that need.

I am not understanding the "globalist elite" ownership assertion. Ford is publicly traded on the NYSE.

Lastly, I doubt the assertion that Ford will "always be associated with corruption". By whom? To what is this corruption related? They have had some awful quality outcomes and management decisions along the way....is that to what you refer as "corruption"? Stock manipulation? Bribery? What is this suggestion about? If you query 100 people randomly sampled, you suggest 100% will make this association? I doubt the figure will exceed a single digit percentage, but I am also speculating.

I don't and never did work for Ford. I've never owned a Ford product in my lifetime. But, I have and do work in the automobile industry, both OEM and Tier I supplier, for full disclosure.
I guess to elaborate, technology, especially in terms of electrification, has allowed options in terms of what people can buy. Speaking generally, younger generations are not as interested in cars as older generations. This is due to, as you mentioned, less disposable income, ride sharing trends, and an overall lack of interest. They would much rather shut off their brains and scroll through their phones than actually drive a car. We on this forum are driving enthusiasts, but there aren't many young people that actually appreciate a BMW for its driving dynamics.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that they are using the Mustang name, the same way BMW used the M3 / M4 to create a marketing campaign that is tailored towards young people. I know older people generally buy these cars, but marketing is aiming differently.

In terms of the globalist elite, Ford is publicly traded but is controlled by oil / coal lobbyists, wealthy politicians, national / international oil tycoons, and conglomerates that dictate the course of human existence. Ultimately, they are not Elon Musk. They are not individual thinkers that work to better humanity, they are out for personal interest and create conflict for personal greed in order to suppress the general public and keep us occupied with Super Bowl marketing every year.
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      01-27-2021, 12:03 PM   #19
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I guess to elaborate, technology, especially in terms of electrification, has allowed options in terms of what people can buy. Speaking generally, younger generations are not as interested in cars as older generations. This is due to, as you mentioned, less disposable income, ride sharing trends, and an overall lack of interest. They would much rather shut off their brains and scroll through their phones than actually drive a car. We on this forum are driving enthusiasts, but there aren't many young people that actually appreciate a BMW for its driving dynamics.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that they are using the Mustang name, the same way BMW used the M3 / M4 to create a marketing campaign that is tailored towards young people. I know older people generally buy these cars, but marketing is aiming differently.

In terms of the globalist elite, Ford is publicly traded but is controlled by oil / coal lobbyists, wealthy politicians, national / international oil tycoons, and conglomerates that dictate the course of human existence. Ultimately, they are not Elon Musk. They are not individual thinkers that work to better humanity, they are out for personal interest and create conflict for personal greed in order to suppress the general public and keep us occupied with Super Bowl marketing every year.
I recently presented a paper on the increasing role of Millennials in the new car market, but getting into detail would go beyond what this forum is for. There is significant evidence that Millennials were simply delayed in their car interest and acquisitions, and are making up for it in dominant volume now. Gen Z is still too early to confirm but from the industry's standpoint, looks even more promising...once we get past the pandemic.

As to your assessment of the industry and its people, among the benefits and interesting parts of this forum are encountering folks with different world views! Thanks for the chat and have a great day!
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      01-28-2021, 07:32 AM   #20
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I guess to elaborate, technology, especially in terms of electrification, has allowed options in terms of what people can buy. Speaking generally, younger generations are not as interested in cars as older generations. This is due to, as you mentioned, less disposable income, ride sharing trends, and an overall lack of interest. They would much rather shut off their brains and scroll through their phones than actually drive a car. We on this forum are driving enthusiasts, but there aren't many young people that actually appreciate a BMW for its driving dynamics.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that they are using the Mustang name, the same way BMW used the M3 / M4 to create a marketing campaign that is tailored towards young people. I know older people generally buy these cars, but marketing is aiming differently.

In terms of the globalist elite, Ford is publicly traded but is controlled by oil / coal lobbyists, wealthy politicians, national / international oil tycoons, and conglomerates that dictate the course of human existence. Ultimately, they are not Elon Musk. They are not individual thinkers that work to better humanity, they are out for personal interest and create conflict for personal greed in order to suppress the general public and keep us occupied with Super Bowl marketing every year.
As in most things, the truth is more nuanced. Yes...Tesla does stand for a reduced carbon footprint and I applaud it for that. But Musk has also claimed that Covid-10 will be gone by the end of this past April and he has fought Covid control measures.

Ford, on the other hand, joined BMW in fighting the prior administration's efforts to undermine California's CARB rules while GM and Toyota, among others, joined the Administration in trying to undermine the rules. Again, nuance.
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      02-12-2021, 02:15 PM   #21
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Its a pretty good looking car in person. Didn't get to sit inside, but materials look to be decent. I see these selling well.
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      02-12-2021, 07:04 PM   #22
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It’s a “nice” looking car with a less than nice interior. And that huge iPad blocking the view is horrible.
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