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BIMMERPOST Universal Forums General BMW News and Cars Discussion Doug DeMuro "What is Going On with BMW's Weird Decisions Lately?"

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      02-06-2021, 07:58 PM   #45
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      02-07-2021, 08:04 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post
People forget that all too often . On a related topic, here are the recent ev sales rankings from Europe. As you can see, VW already sells almost twice as many ID3’s compared to Tesla M3.
This is 100% due to logistics issues shipping Model 3's to Europe to meet demand in other areas of the world. Giga Berlin is not online yet and Y is ramping in Shanghai so this chart is very misleading.

I think BMW and many car makers are floundering, the only one I see with the right vision and commitment to the changing industry is VW. Their CEO seems to truly understand the storm that is coming, admit they are dead in the water without a complete overhaul and lay plans to "try" and get out ahead of it.

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      02-07-2021, 08:17 AM   #47
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I think BMW has got old like its most loyal customers including myself. Its has been very successful but the newer generation wants other things from its cars. Global warming is bearing down on us and they want change. I think BMW and the German auto industry can survive but it will need to change. I think that right now VW is making a valid attempt with its new electric ID cars. I see BMW and Mercedes dipping their toes in the water but will be forced to change.
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      02-07-2021, 10:07 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinebuilder View Post
I think BMW has got old like its most loyal customers including myself. Its has been very successful but the newer generation wants other things from its cars. Global warming is bearing down on us and they want change. I think BMW and the German auto industry can survive but it will need to change. I think that right now VW is making a valid attempt with its new electric ID cars. I see BMW and Mercedes dipping their toes in the water but will be forced to change.
I don't know if BMW has gotten old. I think their arrogance prevented them from adapting in a timely manner. But creating ugly, disfigured, non-congruent designs and throwing out the "baby with the bathwater" by giving up all traditional design cues is not what anybody is asking for, including young buyers.

My kids and all of their friends think that the new BMWs are absolutely ugly and they have zero desire to ever own one. Their families can afford any car they want. They also are shun bigotry and discrimination and think that BMWs social media and marketing team are absolutely disgusting.
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      02-07-2021, 04:48 PM   #49
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+1 I still like the way BMWs drive but Dukec is likely to drive me away on my next vehicle.
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      02-07-2021, 10:58 PM   #50
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Recent BMW Commercials

In case you haven't seen, these are BMW's recent commercials. Assuming BMW hasn't lost its mind (admittedly not a great assumption), I'm trying to understand what BMW is going for, what is its direction with these commercials? It's just baffling.



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      02-08-2021, 08:51 AM   #51
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I have no love for Doug, but he's mostly not wrong. BMW has given up on their enthusiast market, completely alienating them in favor of zoomers that can't afford their cars anyway.

Other than picking up a used M2C/CS, I don't see myself ever purchasing a BMW again at this point.
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      02-08-2021, 09:01 AM   #52
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The worlds most important car market, China, loves big grills. It's as simple as that.

But I must admit the new large grill looks good on both the i4 (concept at least) and the iX, just not the 3- and 4-series. So, on BEV it's good, but on ICE it's bad.
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      02-08-2021, 11:07 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JorgenM View Post
The worlds most important car market, China, loves big grills. It's as simple as that.

But I must admit the new large grill looks good on both the i4 (concept at least) and the iX, just not the 3- and 4-series. So, on BEV it's good, but on ICE it's bad.
That's been the excuse thrown around here. But the reality is not that simple. Dig deeper. There is a fundamental problem with the people at BMW. See the above posts.
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      02-08-2021, 12:42 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
That's been the excuse thrown around here. But the reality is not that simple. Dig deeper. There is a fundamental problem with the people at BMW. See the above posts.
Yeah, I hear that argument about China all the time, and I can't help but think that it doesn't make a ton of sense.

BMW has what...4 different front ends for the 3/4 series platform depending on trim level and body style right? You're telling me they can't come up with a couple more front ends for the USDM market that don't have the huge "china face?"

Yes, the Chinese market is big, but the U.S. market is still quite large. You know what market is smaller than both though? The European market. And yet BMW designs entire diesel engines for that market. But we're saying a new front fascia is too difficult to produce for the second biggest market in the world?

Another example would be Toyota designing like 4 or 5 different mid-sized sedans for their domestic market. Did Toyota really need a bunch of RWD Camry alternatives when the Camry platform is RIGHT THERE? And did they need to give each of those RWD mid-sized cars unique styling? I don't know, but all of that seems like a lot more work than making a new front end for the 4-series. And again, the Japanese domestic market is significantly smaller than the North American one.
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      02-08-2021, 02:16 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _X View Post
More like meth. Cannabis may actually result in a better flow and more relaxed styling, not the Pep Boys, overdone styling BMW seems to be embracing.
More like coke.
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      02-08-2021, 07:06 PM   #56
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I found Doug's commentary on BMW's circa 2001 lineup compelling. There were legitimately multiple desirable cars in that lineup. BMW had a special lineup of cars contributing to the intrinsic value of a special brand. Tough to argue against that being the peak. BMW has since sold more cars, but that is a result of dramatically expanding the product line and leveraging brand equity.

Today, the brand no longer feels special. But, in fairness, special is now defined in new ways. If the old tag line was "the ultimate driving machine", what is it in the future?

I am 52 and have owned 9 BMWs. Life's been good and I like to think that my wife and I have 15 cars ahead of us. Going forward, I may keep an old BMW in the garage, but BMW is no longer the default choice when shopping new.
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      02-09-2021, 02:08 AM   #57
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The whole thing about the Chinese wanting bigger grills is an urban legend.
I happen to have a great deal of friends who are Asian, and they HATE the big grills.
This fallacy was most likely started from some vague, somewhat racist leaning group.
.
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      02-09-2021, 02:22 AM   #58
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BMW is totally lost, both from a design point and a marketing point in my view. The marketing strategy to alienate fans and owners of some of the older BMWs were very odd.

It does not help when you have Domagoj Dukec and Adrian van Hooydonk thinking it is great when they get negative reactions to their new designs which they take as a positive.

I admit that I am stuck in the past but BMW was the ultimate driving machines back then; driver and machine wrapped around in a superb and good looking chassis.





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      02-09-2021, 03:20 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ..Rush.. View Post
The whole thing about the Chinese wanting bigger grills is an urban legend.
I happen to have a great deal of friends who are Asian, and they HATE the big grills.
This fallacy was most likely started from some vague, somewhat racist leaning group.
.
Actually, Tokuo Fukuichi sold them on the idea
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      02-09-2021, 06:54 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ..Rush.. View Post
The whole thing about the Chinese wanting bigger grills is an urban legend.
I happen to have a great deal of friends who are Asian, and they HATE the big grills.
This fallacy was most likely started from some vague, somewhat racist leaning group.
.
Agree. Disfigured and non-thematic designs are not what people are looking for. If you look at the symmetry and alignment of these grills, they make absolutely no sense.

If someone wants to compare to Lexus, there's no comparison. While Lexus grills are big, they flows incredibly well, are symmetrical, and fit the theme of the entire design language.
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      02-09-2021, 06:55 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mani59 View Post
BMW is totally lost, both from a design point and a marketing point in my view. The marketing strategy to alienate fans and owners of some of the older BMWs were very odd.

It does not help when you have Domagoj Dukec and Adrian van Hooydonk thinking it is great when they get negative reactions to their new designs which they take as a positive.

I admit that I am stuck in the past but BMW was the ultimate driving machines back then; driver and machine wrapped around in a superb and good looking chassis.





Let's not forget they had some classy ads as well, far less fluff, more substance. I get this is old style ads now though.
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      02-09-2021, 09:25 AM   #62
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Im pretty sure BMW isn't targeting most people on a bimmerpost forum.

I would say most people here are enthusiasts about performance models and they aren't enthusiasts regarding leasing/buying entry level 3, 5, X3, X5 models.

Bmw, Lexus, MB, Audi are all trying to not lose market share to people who want the entry level luxury car with brand panache, and those buyers are flocking to Tesla. Tesla has also cornered the market of people who just aren't into cars.

I can understand traditional car companies scrambling to get these Tesla buyers, but I don't think they'll make a significant dent in Tesla sales and Tesla's market share will continue to grow. Until people stop viewing Elon Musk like he's Tony Stark, and Tesla stops being "cool" among the masses, I think the competing auto companies will continue to struggle to get people into their electric cars but you need to develop the tech to future proof your cars as ICE go away.

It's like if Tesla started targeting M buyers; they would not be very successful.

Also, the new bmw design language for their electric cars is fugly. If they make a decent looking car it'll help, or do what Lexus is going to do, redesign the cars as needed and electrify all these pointless entry level cars like the aforementioned 3, 5, x3, x5, etc. Keep a few ICE models around like those in the M division and continue growing market share.

Another option for bmw, is to go back to some of their classic design language that people look back at with nostalgia. Retro is definitely marketable, so why not make an electric 2002 homage and offer it with an electric or hybrid option? Could even make an M variant. I think this would be really successful and help bmw carve out their own niche based on design language that historically works.

Just my opinion obv. I'm no expert but a consumer looking at certain car buying trends and anecdotal evidence from the cars I've seen my family/friends purchase.

make this thing with an electric motor:
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      02-09-2021, 09:37 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sublime00 View Post
Another option for bmw, is to go back to some of their classic design language that people look back at with nostalgia. Retro is definitely marketable, so why not make an electric 2002 homage and offer it with an electric or hybrid option? Could even make an M variant. I think this would be really successful and help bmw carve out their own niche based on design language that historically works.

Just my opinion obv. I'm no expert but a consumer looking at certain car buying trends and anecdotal evidence from the cars I've seen my family/friends purchase.

make this thing with an electric motor:
Funny you mentioned that. Top Gear recently interviewed the designers and discussed retro car designs and their Homage Concept Cars.

Apparently the idea behind a retro modern EV BMW saw positive reception.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Gear
"That was a faithful recreation of a concept car created by Marcello Gandini," van Hooydonk said. "The most interesting reactions were from the American market, where people said: 'if you make that as an electric car, that would be my next car'.

"People resonate very positively to something that they know - and can relate to - and new technology. There might be something there that can work in the marketplace."
But apparently, according to Hooydonk, retro modern designs are a sign of weakness and of a lost brand :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Gear
Sadly, this doesn't mean van Hooydonk and his team are interested in, for argument's sake, recreating the E21 with the internals of the i4. "I feel that retro design works well if you want to reposition a brand that has sort of lost its way," he said. "You want to trace back where you came from and pick up on the trail where you were successful and go on from there."
...
"We feel we should continue the fire, as opposed to worshipping the ashes, if you know what I mean," he concluded.
This is just more flustering and perplexing logic and thinking from BMW's designers. Its not like BMW themselves haven't done retro designed vehicles (Z8), and the fact that they own two brands who's entire vehicle portfolio is based on retro design (RR and Mini). Not to mention many other brands (who are far from lost as Hooydonk would say) have found success in retro designs, from the Mustang, Bronco, Wrangler, G-Wagon, Challenger, etc. They seem to be okay when designing a car that will only aim towards 20% of buyers and receive negative reception, yet when a concept gets praise from prospective customers it doesn't happen. :

Full Article: https://www.topgear.com/car-news/ret...-happening?amp
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      02-09-2021, 10:09 AM   #64
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I think BMW is forgetting the hand that feeds it.
The reason China and other growing markets desire BMW is because western countries elevated it into a luxury brand. And that was because of us enthusiasts. We were the ones driving demand for sporty, well engineered sedans. Even if they cost more, we were happy to fork over the cash (and fork it over again for repairs). And then we told our neighbours and friends. I personally am responsible for 10-15 new BMW purchases amongst my friends and coworkers.

What do you think I’d tell them today?
Get a tesla or a Porsche. There’s no other choices unless you want a supercar.

So if you abandon the root, eventually the whole tree dies.
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      02-09-2021, 10:16 AM   #65
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Yeah I don't get what BMW is trying to do, especially with styling. I don't think grill-gate is such a big deal on the M3/4, but that i4 is really unattractive. Maybe the design language tested well in focus groups in Europe but I predict this thing will be a massive flop.

Maybe they're throwing everything at a dartboard and seeing what sticks.

Retro def sells. Another example to add is the Honda E. I'm not into electric cars at all but I think this thing looks great. Just do something simple and classic BMW like the 02 Reminiscence Concept
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      02-09-2021, 10:26 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mani59 View Post

It does not help when you have Domagoj Dukec and Adrian van Hooydonk thinking it is great when they get negative reactions to their new designs which they take as a positive.
To me this the equivalent of a child setting his crotch on fire to get attention.

Thing is, BMW didn’t need to do that. They’re already a globally known and respected brand.
They need to deliver on the promise of their brand. Huge grilles and a million varieties of the Pontiac Aztec aren’t going to do that.
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