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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G80 M3 / G82 M4 Forum (2019+) For those disgusted with the G8X...

View Poll Results: My choice for a G8X alternative will be a....
Mercedes 18 14.52%
Porsche 47 37.90%
Audi 14 11.29%
TESLA 11 8.87%
Chevrolet Corvette C8 14 11.29%
Other (..be specific) 20 16.13%
Voters: 124. You may not vote on this poll

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      11-06-2019, 09:47 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by wanesso View Post
The 2020 GTR and the 992 C4S
The GTR was very cool when it was launched but it ain’t no 911 and I feel that they’ve been milking the design too long now. The latest updates aren’t much of a change and what is there feel a bit forced in an attempt to delay a much needed major refresh.



From a looks perspective I’ll have the 4 concept or the leaked G80 any day over that.
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      11-07-2019, 05:48 AM   #46
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I don't get the people who now think about switching to a 911 because of the big grille. I mean if you anyway don't need the space for more than 2 passengers and the cargo space (and obviously have enough money for the Porsche), then why did you even consider the M3? The 911 already should have been your choice then (or a similar car).

I mean that's what the M3 is about, you get a car with sports car performance and characteristics and at the same time you have the space and practicality of a normal sedan. And that's the reason why I can't consider Porsche as an alternative, because they have no such car (the Panamera is too big and heavy). The higher costs aside, of course.
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      11-07-2019, 10:55 AM   #47
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I don't get the people who now think about switching to a 911 because of the big grille. I mean if you anyway don't need the space for more than 2 passengers and the cargo space (and obviously have enough money for the Porsche), then why did you even consider the M3? The 911 already should have been your choice then (or a similar car).

I mean that's what the M3 is about, you get a car with sports car performance and characteristics and at the same time you have the space and practicality of a normal sedan. And that's the reason why I can't consider Porsche as an alternative, because they have no such car (the Panamera is too big and heavy). The higher costs aside, of course.
Exactly, the cars are not in the same class.

Could only argue that the ugly grills makes you want to stretch budget to afford a Porsche.
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      11-07-2019, 11:43 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Croatian test driver View Post
I don't get the people who now think about switching to a 911 because of the big grille. I mean if you anyway don't need the space for more than 2 passengers and the cargo space (and obviously have enough money for the Porsche), then why did you even consider the M3? The 911 already should have been your choice then (or a similar car).

I mean that's what the M3 is about, you get a car with sports car performance and characteristics and at the same time you have the space and practicality of a normal sedan. And that's the reason why I can't consider Porsche as an alternative, because they have no such car (the Panamera is too big and heavy). The higher costs aside, of course.
Some people still prefer an M3 regardless of space considerations as well as money ones

The M3 is better balanced and easier to drive fast than the 911s at the track.

I am convinced all the regular HPDE crowd would be better served with a M3 than a 911
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      11-07-2019, 12:55 PM   #49
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No an M3 is a compromise and its cheaper, thats all....

You are crazy! A 4door sedan is better track car than a true sport car which is the definition of 911???

Im coming from an F80 and luv the brand but thats just sillly.....Stop with the kool-aid my friend!!!
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      11-08-2019, 09:11 AM   #50
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No an M3 is a compromise and its cheaper, thats all....

You are crazy! A 4door sedan is better track car than a true sport car which is the definition of 911???

Im coming from an F80 and luv the brand but thats just sillly.....Stop with the kool-aid my friend!!!
Please come to the track and explain it to me. Because I spend many days every year explaining it to 991 GT3 RSs in the red pca group.

I'm not interested in keyboard racing or spreadsheet comparisons. 'Dedicated sports car' sounds really good while sitting around with friends shooting the shit. In real life it means nothing.

There is a segment of the population, essentially hard parkers, that like comparing cars based on specifications while standing around in their Cars and Coffee. And then there are others who don't have time for Cars and Coffee because they're at the track.
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      11-08-2019, 09:40 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m630 View Post
No an M3 is a compromise and its cheaper, thats all....

You are crazy! A 4door sedan is better track car than a true sport car which is the definition of 911???

Im coming from an F80 and luv the brand but thats just sillly.....Stop with the kool-aid my friend!!!
911's rear engine layout is inherently less stable (approx. 15:85 weight distribution) vs. BMW's 50:50 front engine, rear drive layout. It is thus much harder to corner fast at the limit.

If FIA international grade A driver finds it hard to drive fast compared to the M3, imagine what it would be for an amateur driver. @3:30:
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      11-08-2019, 10:17 AM   #52
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Actual Race car drivers do not drive production cars on the track for a living, they drive purpose built race cars. And Porsche is king at track cars too. I dont have the time at the moment to be accurate, but id challenge that 15/85 split quoted as well.
I luv the Roundel but come on, please, a 4 door sedan vs purpose built sports car is not a real comparison.
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      11-08-2019, 12:02 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m630 View Post
Actual Race car drivers do not drive production cars on the track for a living, they drive purpose built race cars. And Porsche is king at track cars too. I dont have the time at the moment to be accurate, but id challenge that 15/85 split quoted as well.
I luv the Roundel but come on, please, a 4 door sedan vs purpose built sports car is not a real comparison.
Going a bit off topic..

Iím having a hard time understanding your first point. These professionals are the ones who adapt fast to rapidly changing environment and are able to produce stable lap time after a warm up lap. This does not change driving production cars.

The only ďfastĒ Porsches on track are GT2/GT3s and if youíve ever seriously tracked them, you would know that these GT3 drivers typically have practice experience with BMW first because it is much more forgiving & easier to extract lap time on the go with a bimmer.
It is not easy to drive a rear mounted engine car that loses front grip going 200kph due to weight distribution.

From 997 and on, they seem to have brought it to around 3:7 to 3.5:6.5. Still heavy rear biased.
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      11-08-2019, 01:48 PM   #54
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My point is that its moot to compare such different cars that have nothing in common other than being really fast.

And you are still referencing street cars which is not what a race driver would use, inclusive of the GT2 RS and GT3 RS. While they are very fast on the track, they are still street cars for peps with lots and lots of cash that like to (in many cases but not all) show off. Which is fine, but they are not race cars. Now if you want to talk about the GT2 RS Clubsport, then you can measure accurately as to what a 911 can do on a track with a track only car. And as you im sure are aware, the RSR is midengine to balance the weight for true track use.
Its fun to a point but i could care less what a street car does on a track, they are not made for and not properly setup for such use.
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      11-08-2019, 01:50 PM   #55
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Quote:
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My point is that its moot to compare such different cars that have nothing in common other than being really fast.

And you are still referencing street cars which is not what a race driver would use, inclusive of the GT2 RS and GT3 RS. While they are very fast on the track, they are still street cars for peps with lots and lots of cash that like to (in many cases but not all) show off. Which is fine, but they are not race cars. Now if you want to talk about the GT2 RS Clubsport, then you can measure accurately as to what a 911 can do on a track with a track only car. And as you im sure are aware, the RSR is midengine to balance the weight for true track use.
Its fun to a point but i could care less what a street car does on a track, they are not made for and not properly setup for such use.
There are plenty of people tracking regular cars. Grassroots motorsports like AER/Chumpcar etc as well.

None of us are professional race drivers, but we can take whatever car we have and learn how to drive it properly at HPDE events.


I could care less which pro race car is faster when driven by a race driver as that doesn't cover anyone on this forum
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      11-08-2019, 01:51 PM   #56
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Quote:
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911's rear engine layout is inherently less stable (approx. 15:85 weight distribution) vs. BMW's 50:50 front engine, rear drive layout. It is thus much harder to corner fast at the limit.
It's likely a waste of time to explain this stuff to people who know as much about tracking as a watermelon knows about an apple.

People want to sit around and proclaim X car is much faster than Y despite not tracking themselves... it's quite lame.
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      11-08-2019, 04:23 PM   #57
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It's likely a waste of time to explain this stuff to people who know as much about tracking as a watermelon knows about an apple.

People want to sit around and proclaim X car is much faster than Y despite not tracking themselves... it's quite lame.
agreed.

I've driven the m4 a few times, and ive driven the BASE VERT 991.2. That 911 was worlds better in handling, shifting, road feel, etc. The m4 was a bit more potent in the power department but the 911 doesnt lack there. The m4 seems a bit more unglued with its power. The 911 is smooth. I drove the 911 on Angeles Crest hwy and it was unbelievable. So much confidence from a rwd vehicle.

I bet my lap times would be worlds better with a 911 just because it is easier to drive. Some people don't realize that some of the cars that put up good times are not easy to drive. Probably like the Viper ACR as an example.
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      11-08-2019, 07:01 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
It's likely a waste of time to explain this stuff to people who know as much about tracking as a watermelon knows about an apple.

People want to sit around and proclaim X car is much faster than Y despite not tracking themselves... it's quite lame.
The easiest way to tell when one has lost the argument is when they devolve to name calling.

This discussion started simply with the discussion on the fact that a sedan is not optimal to a sportcar on a track. Everything else was just banter, stop trying to compensate.

Ive been on tracks and have twice driven with Mike Renner so I know just a bit, but no i dont track regularly but that matters zero.

Enjoy your track dayz
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      11-08-2019, 09:00 PM   #59
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agreed.

I've driven the m4 a few times, and ive driven the BASE VERT 991.2. That 911 was worlds better in handling, shifting, road feel, etc. The m4 was a bit more potent in the power department but the 911 doesnt lack there. The m4 seems a bit more unglued with its power. The 911 is smooth. I drove the 911 on Angeles Crest hwy and it was unbelievable. So much confidence from a rwd vehicle.

I bet my lap times would be worlds better with a 911 just because it is easier to drive. Some people don't realize that some of the cars that put up good times are not easy to drive. Probably like the Viper ACR as an example.
Have you driven 911s before 997? Itís only recent(991.1 and on) they moved the engine closer to the midship layout to gain more stability. M3 on the other hand has always been easy to drive fast.

If you had trouble putting power down with M4 on track, it is likely because the tires are not warm enough or the compound itself is worse than whatís on the 911 C2S. May I also ask if youíve driven with traction control on?
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      11-09-2019, 05:52 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Croatian test driver View Post
I don't get the people who now think about switching to a 911 because of the big grille. I mean if you anyway don't need the space for more than 2 passengers and the cargo space (and obviously have enough money for the Porsche), then why did you even consider the M3? The 911 already should have been your choice then (or a similar car).

I mean that's what the M3 is about, you get a car with sports car performance and characteristics and at the same time you have the space and practicality of a normal sedan. And that's the reason why I can't consider Porsche as an alternative, because they have no such car (the Panamera is too big and heavy). The higher costs aside, of course.
Some people still prefer an M3 regardless of space considerations as well as money ones

The M3 is better balanced and easier to drive fast than the 911s at the track.

I am convinced all the regular HPDE crowd would be better served with a M3 than a 911
I agree that some people prefer the M3 over the 911 "just because." It offers some extra utility that you may need someday... it's less showy... maybe easier to find a dealership .... and many other reasons.

I don't think I agree with you that M3s are easier to drive fast..... maybe at that cars absolute limit ... but partly because the 911s limits are just higher so you're carrying more speed, have to be more on your toes. Those same folks you are faster than in the red group would likely even be slower in an M3/m4. Unless they're just super concerned about wrecking the RS and they could push much harder in the M3 (which would be fair, but not the car's fault). I think the point our friend is trying to make that even if you you can push the M3 8-9/10s you're still probably slower than someone pushing any 911 on similar rubber 7-8/10s. The older 911s for sure were tricky and I've never driven those. I've put a short amount of track time in with a 991 GTS, GT3 and Turbo (@ PECLA). They're all really confidence inspiring and I'd be willing to bed I'd be faster around any of my normal tracks in it.

That said... the M3 does have a lot to offer and being able to push a little harder before reaching your limit is fun (why people love Miatas, Veloster N, etc). It's much less of a sports car than the 911 in look, feel and on the track. They have so much technology to help you that they all seem to be really fast on track and I'm not sure why you're arguing against that. People for sure don't NEED that kind of performance and they're into cars that have limits way beyond themselves, but same could be said about the M3 for MANY buyers.

Anyway back on topic ... I still stand by my previous post ... anxiously awaiting g80 details.
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      11-09-2019, 02:49 PM   #61
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As a dual purpose street and track car I would vastly prefer the 911 C2S if it would work well for me practically and budget wise. Maybe or maybe not I’d initially be a bit slower in it on the track but I would welcome it’s higher potential and the challenge/journey to learn to extract as much as possible of it with it’s peculiarities of being the only rear engine car in production

Now that’s for the F8X, we don’t really know what the G8X will be like on the track other than it will have 510hp, AWD and what look like a stellar chassis. sounds like good sauce for performance. Still though, the 911’s unique advantages and challenges would be very tempting. So for those saying they will switch to Porsche this time because of a new BMW grille I personally don’t get it why they aren’t already in a 911.
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      11-10-2019, 01:38 AM   #62
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There are plenty of beautiful options that are and will be on the market. I will wait to see what the final product of the G80 looks like, they have a year to polish it, but the way things are currently looking I am in the majority and do not think this design is for me at all. I have the flexibility where I don't need any particular number of doors or gas mileage, etc as I do not drive much and it is just me in the car 99% of the time. I don't plan to track the car, just want a car that is easy and fun to drive daily that is pretty to look at. These cars are not necessarily direct competitors of the G80, but I do think I am not the only one in the demographic who will be looking at other options besides direct competitors.

I am currently considering one of the below for purchase after the G80 has been released (in order of most likely to purchase):

Mercedes AMG GT53
Porsche 911/911 S (992)
Porsche Taycan 4S
Audi RS6 Avant
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      11-11-2019, 05:01 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanesso View Post
The 2020 GTR and the 992 C4S
The GTR was very cool when it was launched but it ain't no 911 and I feel that they've been milking the design too long now. The latest updates aren't much of a change and what is there feel a bit forced in an attempt to delay a much needed major refresh.



From a looks perspective I'll have the 4 concept or the leaked G80 any day over that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanesso View Post
The 2020 GTR and the 992 C4S
The GTR was very cool when it was launched but it ain't no 911 and I feel that they've been milking the design too long now. The latest updates aren't much of a change and what is there feel a bit forced in an attempt to delay a much needed major refresh.

[IMG]https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/img/GfY...r-nismo-23.jpg[/IMG]

From a looks perspective I'll have the 4 concept or the leaked G80 any day over that.
I still love the GTR and don't really need to see a change in its iconic look. Don't want a huge change in the 911 looks either but that could be because of my advanced age
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      11-11-2019, 05:35 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanesso View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanesso View Post
The 2020 GTR and the 992 C4S
The GTR was very cool when it was launched but it ain't no 911 and I feel that they've been milking the design too long now. The latest updates aren't much of a change and what is there feel a bit forced in an attempt to delay a much needed major refresh.

[IMG]https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/img/GfY...r-nismo-23.jpg[/IMG]

From a looks perspective I'll have the 4 concept or the leaked G80 any day over that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanesso View Post
The 2020 GTR and the 992 C4S
The GTR was very cool when it was launched but it ain't no 911 and I feel that they've been milking the design too long now. The latest updates aren't much of a change and what is there feel a bit forced in an attempt to delay a much needed major refresh.

[IMG]https://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/img/GfY...r-nismo-23.jpg[/IMG]

From a looks perspective I'll have the 4 concept or the leaked G80 any day over that.
I still love the GTR and don't really need to see a change in its iconic look. Don't want a huge change in the 911 looks either but that could be because of my advanced age
The GTR itself was a huge deviation from the look of the R31-34 Skylines. Nissan did what BMW is doing. The R31-34 represented evolutionary change much like the E30-F8X. The R35 was a revolutionary deviation in aesthetics, much like the G8X will be. The R35 isn't beautiful. In fact, many felt that it was an awkward, ugly vehicle that was considered an isolated, do-everything-except-breathe-for-you, driving experience akin to playing a video game. Its performance quickly quieted those early detractors.
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      11-11-2019, 06:52 PM   #65
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Based on this thread, I'll be expecting to see a ton of, "Left the BMW camp. Check out my new Porsche!", threads pop up over the next 12-15 months.
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      11-12-2019, 09:09 AM   #66
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The GTR itself was a huge deviation from the look of the R31-34 Skylines. Nissan did what BMW is doing. The R31-34 represented evolutionary change much like the E30-F8X. The R35 was a revolutionary deviation in aesthetics, much like the G8X will be. The R35 isn't beautiful. In fact, many felt that it was an awkward, ugly vehicle that was considered an isolated, do-everything-except-breathe-for-you, driving experience akin to playing a video game. Its performance quickly quieted those early detractors.
Couldn't agree more
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