[scoale]

Originally Posted by Weiner0123

Reelaxxx!!!! Every other review has been praising bmw on the new 3 series.

Apparently you haven't read May issue of Road & Track.

[derritterauskanada]

I have to drive the G20 yet, but what I am hearing so far has been disappointing.

I am not too sure what exactly BMW is trying to achieve with the latest sedans including the G20. I agree and disagree with the notion that people are not looking for sporty cars, most people are looking for sporty SUV’s. I see so many sporty variants of Crossovers: SQ5’s, GLC43’s, I even saw someone waste time and money on a Ford Edge ST. Let’s not forget the crossovers that started the trend: The Macan and Cayenne. People who buy sedans want even more performance than what a crossover could offer, you can see this in the way a lot of basic sedans are tuned today like the Camry, Maxima and Mazda’s 6. People who buy sedans in this age of the crossover are specifically buying sedans for the strengths they bring to the table over a comparable crossover, these buyers are looking for better sporty performance along with efficiency.

I love how I can get the base Macan and expect great handling and steering with the performance options only increasing that performance. If you want a good handling Macan you do not have to carefully select the options, the base Macan handles amazing with precise steering loaded with feedback that shames the 3er.

The CTS and ATS have failed despite their handling because they are Cadillacs, and the interiors are truly horrible experinces to put someone through.

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by Al Bundy's Dodge

My exact reaction when I sat in an M Sport tetragon trim over the weekend. Was really disappointed how cheap and plastic-y the dash looked for a $50k vehicle.

However, I LOVED the exterior in person. Very much agree that its a handsome and very good looking car. But I'm worried that its just a bunch of make-up covering up whats really going on underneath.

I would let the first owner take the depreciation hit and pay around $22k for a CPO with low mileage.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by derritterauskanada

I love how I can get the base Macan and expect great handling and steering with the performance options only increasing that performance. If you want a good handling Macan you do not have to carefully select the options, the base Macan handles amazing with precise steering loaded with feedback that shames the 3er.

Surely comparing a base Macan to a base 3-series is a bit "apples and oranges". Many would never cross shop with a Porsche, or expect a Porsche like drive.

A 3-series is an everyday means of transport, a very wide market place, users wanting different things. This is nothing new, BMW have covered this wide base for generations of models. Certainly our UK market has always had a wide spread of specifications, to cover the wider user market.

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Surely comparing a base Macan to a base 3-series is a bit "apples and oranges". Many would never cross shop with a Porsche, or expect a Porsche like drive.

A 3-series is an everyday means of transport, a very wide market place, users wanting different things. This is nothing new, BMW have covered this wide base for generations of models. Certainly our UK market has always had a wide spread of specifications, to cover the wider user market.

I don't agree. I think the Macan will be cross shopped with luxury sport sedans despite it being a crossover.

[wknddrivr]

Originally Posted by WWM3

I don't agree. I think the Macan will be cross shopped with luxury sport sedans despite it being a crossover.

I considered a macan when I got my 5 series. I don’t need an SUV and I never really use the back seats eaither but I wanted something with a nice interior great seats and moderately entertaining to drive. The Macan drives better than the G30 5 series, but out of principle I just didn’t want an SUV and I prefer BMW over VW

Pricing on the new 3 brings it closer to the macan too. I mean an m-sport RWD 330 is like $56k. And since you can’t get a manual anymore with the 3 series, there’s no downside to going with the macan anymore and it provides more driving enjoyment.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by derritterauskanada

I have to drive the G20 yet, but what I am hearing so far has been disappointing.

I am not too sure what exactly BMW is trying to achieve with the latest sedans including the G20. I agree and disagree with the notion that people are not looking for sporty cars, most people are looking for sporty SUV's. I see so many sporty variants of Crossovers: SQ5's, GLC43's, I even saw someone waste time and money on a Ford Edge ST. Let's not forget the crossovers that started the trend: The Macan and Cayenne. People who buy sedans want even more performance than what a crossover could offer, you can see this in the way a lot of basic sedans are tuned today like the Camry, Maxima and Mazda's 6. People who buy sedans in this age of the crossover are specifically buying sedans for the strengths they bring to the table over a comparable crossover, these buyers are looking for better sporty performance along with efficiency.

I love how I can get the base Macan and expect great handling and steering with the performance options only increasing that performance. If you want a good handling Macan you do not have to carefully select the options, the base Macan handles amazing with precise steering loaded with feedback that shames the 3er.

The CTS and ATS have failed despite their handling because they are Cadillacs, and the interiors are truly horrible experinces to put someone through.

If anything though, bmw is moving toward a sport focus in the g20 generation with the m340i. The 340i is now only offered in the sporty, most performance oriented trim outside of the real M-car line up. The 340i comes standard with sport tuned suspension, a real diff, and nearly 400 hp, among other things. They're essentially assuming that most customers who are interested in the I6 powered 3-series want most of the performance bits too (at least in the US).

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Fuller

If anything though, bmw is moving toward a sport focus in the g20 generation with the m340i. The 340i is now only offered in the sporty, most performance oriented trim outside of the real M-car line up. The 340i comes standard with sport tuned suspension, a real diff, and nearly 400 hp, among other things. They're essentially assuming that most customers who are interested in the I6 powered 3-series want most of the performance bits too (at least in the US).

I mean, it seems more like ///Marketing than a performance oriented trim, its just a 340i with an m sport package added and some more badges and a bunch of performance related options (other than the inline 6) that can also be optioned on a 330i which doesn't carry an M badge in front of it. Not to say that it isn't sporty or fun, but its not like this M performance line is anything really created by M or super special. By eliminating the luxury/sport line for the 340i, they can charge a higher base price as the M sport package typically costs more, and now its just built into the base price. Not to mention, it also helps them compete with MB and Audi and creating a cheaper way to get a prestigious M badged car since the competitors have AMG and S badged on them, and that sounds much better than just 340i.

[anotheran]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

helps them compete with MB and Audi and creating a cheaper way to get a prestigious M badged car since the competitors have AMG and S badged on them, and that sounds much better than just 340i.

It's THIS ^. Way to charge more and make ppl buying them feel more special. Just look at the F30 forum for ppl flaunting buying the "ZHP" model

[BigSky702]

Originally Posted by anotheran

It's THIS ^. Way to charge more and make ppl buying them feel more special. Just look at the F30 forum for ppl flaunting buying the "ZHP" model

really?? Think I fit in that category??
I get it! Really I do .. it’s not an true M, and so what?!

Paradoxically it seems you’re trying to indirectly justify your existence with this “it’s not an M mantra”...

Stop generalizing people, with pseudo-psychology.. not everyone is into a badge! Just enjoy what you have, and leave it at that.

[BigSky702]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

I mean, it seems more like ///Marketing than a performance oriented trim, its just a 340i with an m sport package added and some more badges and a bunch of performance related options (other than the inline 6) that can also be optioned on a 330i which doesn't carry an M badge in front of it. Not to say that it isn't sporty or fun, but its not like this M performance line is anything really created by M or super special. By eliminating the luxury/sport line for the 340i, they can charge a higher base price as the M sport package typically costs more, and now its just built into the base price. Not to mention, it also helps them compete with MB and Audi and creating a cheaper way to get a prestigious M badged car since the competitors have AMG and S badged on them, and that sounds much better than just 340i.

Look at the badges in your signature ... don’t think you been PIMPED by a label?? If you’re a consumer, you’re being pimped.

Ok. I drive an m340i now, does that make me any less of a car lover than when I drove an M4??

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by BigSky702

Look at the badges in your signature ... don't think you been PIMPED by a label?? If you're a consumer, you're being pimped.

Ok. I drive an m340i now, does that make me any less of a car lover than when I drove an M4??

What? I didn't mention anything about being less of a car lover for not having a full fledged M car. All i simply did was explain why I think BMW has made an "M Performance" Line and that I believe its all for marketing purposes. I expressed my opinion as such, and don't see how I offended you at all, nor anyone that drives an 330i, M340i, M3, etc. I simply explained that the M340i is not really a performance model, but simply a 340i with an M sport appearance package and similar performance options to that of a 330i, with an added M badge to its name to compete in the likes of the C43 and S4.

Also I don't undeestand your "pimped by a label" claim. I bought/leased these vehicles for how they drove and which I liked most, I didn't buy/lease them for their label, badge, or stigma, I just enjoy how they drive, for all I care there could be toyota badges on the hood and it wouldn't change how I feel about these vehicles

[BigSky702]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

What? I didn't mention anything about being less of a car lover for not having a full fledged M car. All i simply did was explain why I think BMW has made an "M Performance" Line and that I believe its all for marketing purposes. I expressed my opinion as such, and don't see how I offended you at all, nor anyone that drives an 330i, M340i, M3, etc. I simply explained that the M340i is not really a performance model, but simply a 340i with an M sport appearance package and similar performance options to that of a 330i, with an added M badge to its name.

Sorry if I took it the wrong way, it’s just getting tiring seeing the constant it’s not a true M post. No offense to you, but this car is slightly more than just a faux M badge, it has potential to be fun and tossable (is that a word???). Put an m340 and 330 (both stock) on a straight away or track and then tell me they’re the same. If there’s no difference I will buy you an M5 competition. You have my word.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by BigSky702

Sorry if I took it the wrong way, it's just getting tiring seeing the constant it's not a true M post. No offense to you, but this car is slightly more than just a faux M badge, it has potential to be fun and tossable (is that a word???). Put an m340 and 330 (both stock) on a straight away or track and then tell me they're the same. If there's no difference I will buy you an M5 competition. You have my word.

I mean there are differences, I never said there wasn't, but in general the M340i isn't tuned or built too differently than a 330i to warrant large handling differences. They're both the same vehicle, platform, parts, with its main difference between the two being its engine. They both have m-sport breaks, m-suspension, M sport differentials, they both can be optioned almost the same, they can both do drift slides, etc., just with different engines. Its likely that a 330i and M340i will handle very similarly, with the biggest difference being weight and power (due to the engine), other than that and maybe tire choices, the M340i doesn't have many other aspects that differentiate it in handling. Hell the 330i could even have better handling because it weighs less up front due to the smaller engine (there are some reviews that argue that the 230i handles better than an M240i because of this), and the 330i has the newer steering rack. The M340i will be faster of course, but I don't believe its such a game changer from the 330i when comparing how they both drive. I'm also confused as to why the M340i has "potential to be fun and tossable" but the 330i doesn't? What about the M340i gives it this possibility over a 330i. (I'm genuinely curious, not being rude, just want to know your thoughts on this)

Also in my original post, I did say "not that this vehicle isn't sporty of fun" I do know its more than just the badge, but the comment that I replied to, was specifically focusing and saying how BMW created M performance for the enthusiast, so my reply focused on the badging and M performance. I'm sure its a fun car, but its a BMW I would hope it'd be fun with or without an M badge, I just don't believe that M performance has anything to do with the handling of the vehicle, I believe its more for marketing and competition to Merc and Audi than anything. Again not saying the M340i isn't fun, but that M doesn't have much to associate with the M340i for its driving dynamics.

[BigSky702]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

I mean there are differences, I never said there wasn't, but in general the M340i isn't tuned or built too differently than a 330i to warrant large handling differences. They're both the same vehicle, platform, parts, with its main difference between the two being its engine. They both have m-sport breaks, m-suspension, M sport differentials, they both can be optioned almost the same, they can both do drift slides, etc., just with different engines. Its likely that a 330i and M340i will handle very similarly, with the biggest difference being weight and power (due to the engine), other than that and maybe tire choices, the M340i doesn't have many other aspects that differentiate it in handling. Hell the 330i could even have better handling because it weighs less up front due to the smaller engine (there are some reviews that argue that the 230i handles better than an M240i because of this), and the 330i has the newer steering rack. The M340i will be faster of course, but I don't believe its such a game changer from the 330i when comparing how they both drive. I'm also confused as to why the M340i has "potential to be fun and tossable" but the 330i doesn't? What about the M340i gives it this possibility over a 330i. (I'm genuinely curious, not being rude, just want to know your thoughts on this)

Also in my original post, I did say "not that this vehicle isn't sporty of fun" I do know its more than just the badge, but the comment that I replied to, was specifically focusing and saying how BMW created M performance for the enthusiast, so my reply focused on the badging and M performance. I'm sure its a fun car, but its a BMW I would hope it'd be fun with or without an M badge, I just don't believe that M performance has anything to do with the handling of the vehicle, I believe its more for marketing and competition to Merc and Audi than anything. Again not saying the M340i isn't fun, but that M doesn't have much to associate with the M340i for driving dynamics.

I think on most points we can agree... I never said it was an order of magnitude better... Yes you can option out the 330i, but what’s the limiting factor between the two? The B58 engine ( the heart) enough of a difference for me.

I also agree, with the statement that you shouldn’t have to check the right boxes to make it handle/feel like a BMW, that should be the baseline.

My main point is forget the badge, lets say it’s just a 340i...
There are performance differences among the trim levels, however great or minute. I’m not deluded into thinking it’s anything other than what it is. I voted with my $$$ because I want more than 255hp,
I would choose a base 340i over a 330, even if they were called car1 and car2, but that’s my preference...regardless of badge or label.

Plus the 330i doesn’t have the cool grille!!

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by joshuastein55

I mean, it seems more like ///Marketing than a performance oriented trim, its just a 340i with an m sport package added and some more badges and a bunch of performance related options (other than the inline 6) that can also be optioned on a 330i which doesn't carry an M badge in front of it. Not to say that it isn't sporty or fun, but its not like this M performance line is anything really created by M or super special. By eliminating the luxury/sport line for the 340i, they can charge a higher base price as the M sport package typically costs more, and now its just built into the base price. Not to mention, it also helps them compete with MB and Audi and creating a cheaper way to get a prestigious M badged car since the competitors have AMG and S badged on them, and that sounds much better than just 340i.

I fully understand that the m340i isn't an actual m-car, designed by the M division. I was responding to another post where the person was complaining that the 3 series should just come sporty, and one shouldn't need to be aware of which packages to spec in order to have something resembling a sports sedan. I think he used a Porsche suv as an example of a vehicle that comes standard with a certain amount of sportiness.

My point is that bmw has gone in this direction with the m340i. I'm not saying it's an m-car, or comparable to a macan or whatever, but it comes standard with the most sport tuned suspension offered from the factory on a non-M 3-series. It was possible to spec an f30 335i with the very "unsporty" base suspension, and to be a very vanilla mod-size near-luxury sedan. For the g20, if you want a 340i, your base option is the sport trim. It's also much more powerful than the 330i. With the f30 the 335i was 300hp, and the 328 was 240 or whatever. The f30 lci hp values were something like 325 and 255 for the 340 and 330i respectively. For the g20, the hp is now around 380 and 260 for the 340 and 330i. There's now well over 100hp difference between the 330i and 340i.

My point isn't about marketing, or competing with audi and MB, or comparing the g20 to other generations of 3-series, or to an actual m-car designed and built by the m division. My point is just that the 340i HAS become somewhat more performance, or "sports sedan" focused. In other words, one can purchase an m340i without having done any research into how to spec the car and get a "sporty" car relative to a base 330i. As I said, this wasn't the case with the f30 base 335i.

[anotheran]

Originally Posted by BigSky702

Sorry if I took it the wrong way, it’s just getting tiring seeing the constant it’s not a true M post. No offense to you, but this car is slightly more than just a faux M badge, it has potential to be fun and tossable (is that a word???). Put an m340 and 330 (both stock) on a straight away or track and then tell me they’re the same. If there’s no difference I will buy you an M5 competition. You have my word.

yeah i don't think ///M badges make it more or less fun. I think a properly set up F30 320i or 328i would be a lot of fun on the track. But you're really pitting an engine against another engine. For the F30, a 340i could already beat a 330i. Putting an ///M didn't really change that.

And your other comment of moving from a M4 to a M340i make you less of a car enthusiast, I totally don't think so. Some ppl here seem to think so by justifying their opinions of a car based on owned or previously owned cars. It is totally about how you've driven a car.

[HighlandPete]

Isn't the G20 M340i, the car many users have been crying out for?

Many have commented (including this forum) that the F3x models should have had an M340i/M440i option, like the 1/2-series (M140i/M240i). Upgraded suspension, engine performance package, etc., rather than having to build it yourself.

Now BMW are doing just that, seems there are some who see it as just a marketing exercise. Rather than a customer request, fulfilled.

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by anotheran

It's THIS ^. Way to charge more and make ppl buying them feel more special. Just look at the F30 forum for ppl flaunting buying the "ZHP" model

Hey now! I have a ZHP!! I'm not flaunting it, but I'm sure enjoying it!

I also paid $9K off sticker, so not sure what you are "on" about saying I was "charged more".

And it is 1 of only 100 made, whether or not they will hold their value is irrelevant. You won't see another one on the road. I like that exclusivity!

[BigSky702]

Originally Posted by anotheran

yeah i don't think ///M badges make it more or less fun. I think a properly set up F30 320i or 328i would be a lot of fun on the track. But you're really pitting an engine against another engine. For the F30, a 340i could already beat a 330i. Putting an ///M didn't really change that.

And your other comment of moving from a M4 to a M340i make you less of a car enthusiast, I totally don't think so. Some ppl here seem to think so by justifying their opinions of a car based on owned or previously owned cars. It is totally about how you've driven a car.

Cool.... I know what I like, and I'm having fun!

[MT4life]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Isn't the G20 M340i, the car many users have been crying out for?

Many have commented (including this forum) that the F3x models should have had an M340i/M440i option, like the 1/2-series (M140i/M240i). Upgraded suspension, engine performance package, etc., rather than having to build it yourself.

Now BMW are doing just that, seems there are some who see it as just a marketing exercise. Rather than a customer request, fulfilled.

Yes and No
By killing MT they didn't fulfill anyone's request.
M sticker doesn't matter to me, I de-badged every BMW I've ever had, M or non-M.

The fact that they made 340i faster and more powerful is fantastic. They could have skipped the M in front of 340i, unless it's a deliberate attempt to target a certain buyer who wants to pretend in front of an average consumer that he/she has an M car.

[BigSky702]

Originally Posted by MT4life

….

They could have skipped the M in front of 340i, unless it's a deliberate attempt to target a certain buyer who wants to pretend in front of an average consumer that he/she has an M car.

Ok, I was ok, up until that last statement... How in the heck do you pretend to be in an M car?? Entertain me with the answer, please.

Anyone that's into cars will know it's not an M, and to the average consumer, they don't care, as long as they see the Roundel they'll assume it's a "high end" vehicle (yea, right)…

Once again, has the ///M550 received this much flack??? And no, it doesn't have a manual also... Seems the M235i received more love, and it was MORE of an M car than the M2!! Yea, I said it!