[Eclimax13]

I was able to get out in an M440i coupe today. It's a winner.

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

I'm no mathematician, but if you're spending 85% of your drive time in Comfort or Eco it kind of proves my point that in real world everyday conditions, the delta of usefulness between the 40i and 30i is not significant.

Yes, I understand that during the 15% of your time that you're not in Comfort or Eco you can put your foot down and make it to Home Depot 1.4 seconds faster than I can, but come now, that is hardly useful. It's a very expensive option that most don't need. Those who track their cars or use the autobahn, different story.

Here in my region I see several M440i's and M330i's per week and we're all going exactly 22 MPH in traffic. And when on the highway, I've yet to have an M440i blow past my 430i, cut me off, etc. same for other performance cars on the road. People don't push these things to the 90th percentile, so we're all the same really. I think these engine wars are a thing of the past. A 1980's relic that might have made some sense then and make no sense now. You get a trunk badge that tells BMW people that you spent more than I did. That's a win. That's the win that most who own them are looking for.

The statement over delta is static data and not how useful it is or how much you can use it. Also you are trying to introduce how much time is spent in a mode and that was never part of the discussion. But if you want to discuss that, the performance delta applies when comparing modes. And the HP wars are alive and well.

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Yes, weight does matter a lot, especially at tight cloverleafs and connectors around my locales. The 330i is not perfect 50/50, but around 300lb lighter than M340i, and that shows at those corners.

A 280 pound difference, based on published specs, won't matter or be noticeable to 99.9% of the drivers on the road.

[madpistol]

Originally Posted by Eclimax13

I was able to get out in an M440i coupe today. It's a winner.

Can’t beat that B58 and handling. It’s an outstanding car.

[jxz01]

Originally Posted by Eclimax13

I was able to get out in an M440i coupe today. It's a winner.

Congrats! I bet you will starting loving b58 cause I am loving it. Really need to appreciate this powerful and reliable machine

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Yes, weight does matter a lot, especially at tight cloverleafs and connectors around my locales. The 330i is not perfect 50/50, but around 300lb lighter than M340i, and that shows at those corners.

Interesting.

So if I have a RWD 30i my car would be in the neighborhood of 500 pounds lighter than an XDrive 40i?

That might help explain why my 430i is an absolute rocket.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by jxz01

Congrats! I bet you will starting loving b58 cause I am loving it. Really need to appreciate this powerful and reliable machine

The B58 is truly a fantastic engine. My wife and I went back and forth between ordering an M340i or M3 (she wanted 6MT), and after spending a lot of seat time in a manual M3 with the S58, in everyday driving I wasn't enthused as much as I expected for the torque curve (i.e. below ~2900 rpms) perhaps mainly since I had the direct comparison with the S55 in my M2C back-to-back which starts hitting with major torque output about 6-700 rpms sooner. However, after driving both the M340i and 6MT M3, typical daily driving roads, it became apparent this ZF8 transmission is outstanding and also the B58 torque curve was impressive.

So our next step was looking at instrumented data since from driving the G80 M3 6MT vs the M340i ZF8 experience, I had this feeling I couldn't shake really. Using C&D test data on the two cars, the 0-60mph is M340i 3.8 seconds, G80 M3 6MT 3.9 seconds. 0-100mph, M340i 9.4 sec, M3 6MT 9.2 seconds. The 1/4 mile is M340i 12.3@114 vs M3 6MT 12.2@117. So my feeling was somewhat spot on in that the performance of the M340i wasn't significantly different from the 6MT M3 (although 3mph higher trap on the M3 is definitely significant in the drag racing world!). Of course this is the somewhat neutered 6MT version of the G80 M3 as the G80 M3C with ZF8 gives 2.8, 7.0 and 124mph trap for those numbers! The second "of course" is that obtaining those acceleration figures for the 6MT M3 requires DSC off, launching it just right and shifting extremely quickly (helps to have decades of drag racing experience for both of those).

The B58 is an outstanding combination of huge power while at the same returning outstanding cruise economy in 8th gear. I love the thing. The M340i is only 0.2 seconds slower to 100mph than our M2C 6MT, and in the M2C you'd definitely need to nail the launch perfectly (DSC off, manage hookup just right, it's not easy) and shift 1-2, 2-3 very fast to have a chance at getting that C&D tested number. In so many ways the M340i reminds us of our E39 M5 we had for 15 years but sold back in 2018, but of course it significantly exceeds the performance of the M5 in every category.

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

Interesting.

So if I have a RWD 30i my car would be in the neighborhood of 500 pounds lighter than an XDrive 40i?

That might help explain why my 430i is an absolute rocket.

The weights I listed are for 2WD. The xDrive models weighs approximately 117 pounds more.

[G22Junkie]

Originally Posted by Eclimax13

I've been shopping for a coupe and can't decide between the 6 and 4. I've driven two 430i coupes and an M440i gran coupe and M440i convertible. Having trouble getting a hold of an M440i coupe to compare. While my car is in service, Bmw gave me a 430i coupe as a loaner and I'm having a blast in it. I know what the b58 can do as I have it in another vehicle but I'm having trouble justifying it in this one as the 4 cylinder has plenty of getup and the fun factor is there. Plus I'm getting over 40mpg doing 80mph. Don't want to make a mistake so I'm wondering if anyone else chose the 430i over the M440i coupe.

I actually had a 430i convertible for about 6 weeks before getting my m440i coupe and I really loved it… until I drove the m440i. Don’t even hesitate, go m440i coupe. You won’t regret it. We are talking night and day as far as performance. This is my 4th bimmer I’ve owned and it’s hands down my fav so far. That’s including an E93 M3. I can’t even imagine how fun she’s gonna be after a few mods 💙 good luck on your search I hope you find that perfect one for you just like I did!

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by G22Junkie

I actually had a 430i convertible for about 6 weeks before getting my m440i coupe and I really loved it… until I drove the m440i. Don’t even hesitate, go m440i coupe. You won’t regret it. We are talking night and day as far as performance. This is my 4th bimmer I’ve owned and it’s hands down my fav so far. That’s including an E93 M3. I can’t even imagine how fun she’s gonna be after a few mods 💙 good luck on your search I hope you find that perfect one for you just like I did!

Convertible isn't as stiff and weighs 300 pounds more. Carrying around 2 additional grown adults will make any car feel a lot more sluggish.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Dan B

A 280 pound difference, based on published specs, won't matter or be noticeable to 99.9% of the drivers on the road.

bmwusa spec says these:

330i RWD 3536lb 51.2/48.8 (1810lb/1726lb)
M340i RWD 3834lb 52.3/47.7(2005lb/1829lb)
M340i xDrive 3951lb 53.3/46.7(2106lb/1845lb)

So 330i RWD is 298lb lighter than M340i RWD, and 415lb lighter than M340i xDrive.

I haven't driven the M340i RWD, but the M340i xDrive does feel nose heavy at corners, and the numbers show that M340i carries extra 296lb at its nose.

[blue_seather]

And a US spec M440i xDrive GC is said to be 762lb (346kg) heavier than a 430i Coupe.

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by blue_seather

And a US spec M440i xDrive GC is said to be 762lb (346kg) heavier than a 430i Coupe.

I used the weight BWM published and I compared like to like. 430i vs 440i. Not the 2dr 430 vs the 4 door 440.

Originally Posted by bavarianride

bmwusa spec says these:

330i RWD 3536lb 51.2/48.8 (1810lb/1726lb)
M340i RWD 3834lb 52.3/47.7(2005lb/1829lb)
M340i xDrive 3951lb 53.3/46.7(2106lb/1845lb)

So 330i RWD is 298lb lighter than M340i RWD, and 415lb lighter than M340i xDrive.

I haven't driven the M340i RWD, but the M340i xDrive does feel nose heavy at corners, and the numbers show that M340i carries extra 296lb at its nose.

I should have been clearer. I was looking at the 4 series since that is the car the OP is looking at. You were clearly talking about the 3 series.

However I still stand by my statement. The average driver will not be able to tell the difference. Even a 415 pound difference.

[KarimS]

If you can comfortably afford the 440 then just go for it, IMO

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Dan B

I used the weight BWM published and I compared like to like. 430i vs 440i. Not the 2dr 430 vs the 4 door 440.



I should have been clearer. I was looking at the 4 series since that is the car the OP is looking at. You were clearly talking about the 3 series.

However I still stand by my statement. The average driver will not be able to tell the difference. Even a 415 pound difference.

my layman understanding is that, M340 xDrive with 53/47 has the CG forward to the midpoint, and the front tires have more lateral force than the rear tires, and that can induce understeer.

The 330i with 51/49 has the CG close(r) to the midpoint, so the lateral force of front and rear tires should be close too, and the car feels more balanced and natural at the corners than M340i xDrive.

[sikotic]

Originally Posted by Dan B

The delta is not small.

I could only quickly find 2021 specs but they should still be relevant.

1.4 second difference 0-60
4.6 seconds for 0-100
1.4 seconds 30-50
1.6 seconds 50-70

If I recall you live in Manhattan. That is somewhat of an anomaly.
There are plenty of nice roads where I can take advantage of the B58.

I agree. Its a big difference. Each time Ive brought my m340 in for scheduled maint, they gave me a 330 loaner that I could not wait to get out of. If you care about power, the answer is obvious.. And if you care about gas milage/saving money, then again, the answer is obvious.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

my layman understanding is that, M340 xDrive with 53/47 has the CG forward to the midpoint, and the front tires have more lateral force than the rear tires, and that can induce understeer.

The 330i with 51/49 has the CG close(r) to the midpoint, so the lateral force of front and rear tires should be close too, and the car feels more balanced and natural at the corners than M340i xDrive.

How the car feels and responds is vastly more a function of wheel rate balance front and rear (i.e combination of spring rate (and motion ratio), sway bar effective rate at wheel, and for transient conditions the damper contribution to wheel rate) than the extremely minor changes in f/r weight distribution mentioned...those are essentially irrelevant.

[G22Junkie]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

Convertible isn't as stiff and weighs 300 pounds more. Carrying around 2 additional grown adults will make any car feel a lot more sluggish.

I’m sure the weight definitely plays a part, but the 130 horsepower difference is really where I feel it. 130 hp is a huge jump. Don’t get me wrong the 430i is a fun car but for me the m440i is just on a whole other level. I’m so glad i made the jump, no regrets 💙

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

my layman understanding is that, M340 xDrive with 53/47 has the CG forward to the midpoint, and the front tires have more lateral force than the rear tires, and that can induce understeer.

The 330i with 51/49 has the CG close(r) to the midpoint, so the lateral force of front and rear tires should be close too, and the car feels more balanced and natural at the corners than M340i xDrive.

99.9% will not feel the difference between a 53/47 vs 50/50 balance. The average driver maybe extracts 70% of a cars peak cornering performance.

It is also common for engineers to dial in understeer for passenger cars. Much safer for the average driver than oversteer. This can be done in many ways. Tires, suspension geometry, sway bars..

Basically, the average driver is really more of a passenger than a driver.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Dan B

99.9% will not feel the difference between a 53/47 vs 50/50 balance. The average driver maybe extracts 70% of a cars peak cornering performance.

It is also common for engineers to dial in understeer for passenger cars. Much safer for the average driver than oversteer. This can be done in many ways. Tires, suspension geometry, sway bars..

Basically, the average driver is really more of a passenger than a driver.

I would agree 53/47 is still pretty good, it is much better than 60/40.

I think the extra front moment of M340ix vs 330i can be calculated based on how far the CG of the car is in front of the midpoint.

M340ix 53.3/46.7 says its CG is 3.696 inches to the front, or 0.308 ft.
330i rwd 51.2/48.8 says its CG is 1.344 inches to the front, or 0.112 ft.

M340ix front 2106llb x 0.308 ft = 648.6lb-ft at front
330i rwd front 1810lb x 0.112ft = 202.7lb-ft at front

If these numbers are correct, then M340ix has 3x front moment compared to 330i rwd. Is there any auto engineer on these forum?

Maybe that can explain why 330i rwd has an eager nose, and M340ix has a heavy nose.

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I would agree 53/47 is still pretty good, it is much better than 60/40.

I think the extra front moment of M340ix vs 330i can be calculated.

Per bmwusa spec M340ix has extra 296lb at front axle.

The 53.3/46.7 of M340ix vs.330i 51.2/48.8 puts M340ix's CG 4.256 inches(or 0.355 ft) more to the front than 330i, for a wheelbase of 112 inches.

So M340ix front tires get extra 105lb-ft of moment vs. 330i. This should be extra load on the front tire grip.

We would need a lot more data to calculate the additional weight on the front tires during weight transfer, and then depending on a lot more data, it could be good or bad for performance.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Dan B

We would need a lot more data to calculate the additional weight on the front tires during weight transfer, and then depending on a lot more data, it could be good or bad for performance.

Agreed, it would be great an auto engineer can chime in on these numbers.

Also, there should a difference of performance(weight transfer benefits and such), vs. the car's feel of being balanced/neutral(in terms of not disturbing inner ears!)

E.g. I reworked the math in post#41 and there seems to be a 3x difference in front moment between the 2 cars.

BTW this appears to be an interesting read: https://www.suspensionsetup.info/blo...e-car-handling

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Agreed, it would be great an auto engineer can chime in on these numbers.

Also, there should a difference of performance(weight transfer benefits and such), vs. the car's feel of being balanced/neutral(in terms of not disturbing inner ears!)

E.g. I reworked the math in post#41 and there seems to be a 3x difference in front moment between the 2 cars.

BTW this appears to be an interesting read: https://www.suspensionsetup.info/blo...e-car-handling

Here are just a few things we would need to calculate the value.

1. Air temp
2. Surface material
3. Surface temp
4. Tire specs.
5. Tread depth
6. Tire pressure
7. Corner weights
8. Speed of car
9. Rate of deceleration
10. Slip angle

There are a few more but this is a good start.