[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Miko M

Yeah, it will be a while and, I am not sure if I could live with no popping and cracking noice coming from the exhaust. Lol

If ///M can put eMotors inside every wheel and make it go fast as stink, I'll be happy with just an electric whine and the wind in my face !

[Chriske92]

Is it just me or does the new 3-series looks like a lexus ? 🤔

[upsidedownfunnel]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I understand that conclusion, but I think the evidence shows the terrible build quality is primarily related to their novice status as a car company. The body in white is poorly designed (compared to "Kias of the 90s" by one teardown expert), assembly has been overwhelmed with technical failures in robotics, Elon set up an extended assembly facility under a tent in their parking lot. This has cost them more than "doing it right the first time", not less. Tesla should have outsourced assembly to a competent subcontractor, but that is not his style. I withdrew my deposit over a year ago as I learned more, and the vehicles I have seen on their owner's forum and in person have been very sub-par. They do make the best BEV drivetrain right now, but the car they wrapped around it is still "in development".

Why did you feel like you had to edit out the words "and spartan interior" from my quote? That made my point make far more sense. You make it seem like I'm blaming the build quality issues alone on battery cost. I was more referring to the quality of the materials and the spartan interior. I also believe the actual build quality suffers because they have to cut costs wherever possible to get the car affordable after the battery costs.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

Why did you feel like you had to edit out the words "and spartan interior" from my quote? That made my point make far more sense. You make it seem like I'm blaming the build quality issues alone on battery cost. I was more referring to the quality of the materials and the spartan interior. I also believe the actual build quality suffers because they have to cut costs wherever possible to get the car affordable after the battery costs.

I did that because there are two different points being made and should be understood separately. The spartan interior was a product planning/business case decision which may have actually been a consequence of the total variable cost of each vehicle, impacted by the battery cost. For that analysis, I agree with you and had no further point to make.

"Quality" is usually defined as the absence of defects and/or conformance to requirements. If a low cost, spartan material is used, it can be high quality if it fits well, does not tear, wear prematurely, etc. A totally spartan interior can be of very high quality. Poor build quality is used to describe the manner and results of the actual assembly, e.g., do parts fit, are the parts correctly produced? The interior of the Model 3 started with poor build quality with examples of headliners wrinkling and poorly trimmed seats.

The poor assembly quality of the entire vehicle (body panel fits were a major issue) is not a result of variable cost management as much as it is inexperience, lack of development/testing, and hubris. Poor advance manufacturing planning and use of robotics negatively affected the plant's throughput and first time through capability. Whether the car they were launching was a traditional ICE vehicle or had a disproportionate cost in the powertrain's battery, they simply didn't have the knowledge or experience to get this plant rolling at volume levels. The decisions they made sometimes utilized higher-cost processes than others which may have resulted in better first time through quality.

[ecaedus]

the upcoming iX3 might be a better choice imo. This seems like the worst of both worlds, low ev range plus weak ICE engine.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by ecaedus

the upcoming iX3 might be a better choice imo. This seems like the worst of both worlds, low ev range plus weak ICE engine.

It suits the largely urbanised European population, fits their batshit-crazy taxation rules, and the "weak ICE engine" with 252 bhp is actually more than powerful compared to the rest of what's on the road, even before you add it to the 270 bhp from the motors at full charge.

Admittedly it's not great for the Nurburging, which is where all practical family cars must shine apparently.

Anyway. One more reason to add to the growing pile of reasons to split car development off for different countries .

[Miko M]

Originally Posted by eDrive

If ///M can put eMotors inside every wheel and make it go fast as stink, I'll be happy with just an electric whine and the wind in my face !

I drove Tesla model S and I love the torque, it's insane
But I am so used to be engaged with MT and the noise, that I hade a hard time buying Tesla.

If BMW ///M comes with same engine from F80/F82 and 2 electric motor I definitely will get one
In fact I will be going back to G80
Can't wait

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Miko M

I drove Tesla model S and I love the torque, it's insane
But I am so used to be engaged with MT and the noise, that I hade a hard time buying Tesla.

If BMW ///M comes with same engine from F80/F82 and 2 electric motor I definitely will get one
In fact I will be going back to G80
Can't wait

That will probably happen at some point but it will more likely than not be for several more years.

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

The 3 series is not a purpose-built EV that has a skateboard style battery. It's an ICE car first retro-fitted to fit a short range battery.

You say that you don't even have to "think" about range when you drive your Model X but admit that you have a short commute. So you realize that a 330e would mean you almost never use gasoline on a daily basis right? Also, you technically have more range and far more refueling options when you drive a 330e. You talk about pure electric range as if it's this huge technological advancement. All it is are more batteries. That's it. A bunch of super heavy batteries that weigh your car down. I'm not saying Teslas aren't cool. The bigger battery packs allow for the massive power delivery that allows for the insane performance figures. But from a practicality standpoint, from an engineer's perspective, the PHEVs like the 330e are the best compromise. You don't get any of the drawbacks of either a pure EV or a pure ICE car, which are significant.

In never use gas on my daily trips anyway (with my MX)...

The whole point is that life is made up of more than just the daily commute. While your daily commute might be 90% of what your daily driving requirements are, it the add-on trips that make the larger range a non-issue. I know my Volt would meet my daily commute on EV, but its the other parts of life that seep into your daily driving requirements that truly make the longer ranges (200+) a non-issue.

You can say that the 30 mile range of a PHEV would technically meet your daily commute, but it might not meet your average daily driving requirements. Side trips to the grocery store, airport, taking the kids somewhere, etc all work into those figures. Thats where a 200+ mile range REALLY start paying off. You don't even have to THINK about range.

Yup, I said my daily commute was pretty short. But I know I can hop in my Model X (248 mi) and still drive from Milwaukee to Chicago and back (90 mi each way) without ever stopping to recharge.

Life's not just about your commute...

[Imola.ZHP]

Had the older car as a loaner once while one of our i3's was in for some warranty work. I feel as though some of the purists that want more all electric range don't quite understand the concept of a "hybrid" the hybrid is suppose to make the best of two power sources. A PHEV with much more range than this doesn't make as much sense as it would tend to lean on the EV powertrain a little harder than the ICE, not optimizing both. This doesn't mean you cannot use it one way or the other but the sweet spot is maximizing both, equally.

If you only need 50 miles of EV range, or more, go ahead and buy a short-range EV. You can pick up a used one for pennies on the original MSRP dollar.

[ted99]

The ICE powertrain is about the same weight as extra battery would be on a full EV with 250mi of range. That range is not enough for inter-city use, especially with recharging rates at present for anything other than a Tesla. With the 330e, you get all-electric for in town use and ICE for inter-city. For the next few years, this is optimum. When solid-state batteries are available and lots of 150 KW chargers, all-electric will make sense for other than special cases. I'm really liking the new 330e with the new "individual" colors reported to be available. Blue with all leather Red or White interior and it'll be equivalent to the Jag i Pace I recently drove. The i Pace's interior really set it apart. Otherwise, I thought the 330e was a better car. With these new all-leather interiors, the 330e is a chalenger to the i Pace, for $30K less.

[M2Cmtl]

Originally Posted by ted99

The ICE powertrain is about the same weight as extra battery would be on a full EV with 250mi of range.

That just doesn't make sense since the Full EV cars are heavier then the ICE cars. A model S is easily 500 lbs heavier than a M550i. The 530e is even listed as 250 lbs less than a M550i...

[ted99]

^^^You are probably right, which makes the case for a 30-50 mi range PHEV even better. For a fair comparison, one needs to add the weight of the PHEV battery to the ICE drivetrain weight and compare that to the weight of the full EV battery and drivetrain. As you point out the total weight of the extant 250 mi+ full EV cars is heavier than equivalent ICE-only. But, we don't have a direct comparison to an equivalent PHEV, yet. The 530e is a mid-size when compared to the full size Tesla S, and that's as close as we can get today--but the 530e IS lighter. The best comparison will come when the i3X full-EV is available to compare to the X3 PHEV. Both are supposed to be released late next year and that will provide an apples to apples comparison.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by BigT

This car only shows what I always say: We're in a transition time.
One says "Uuuh those heavy batteries", I say "Geee, those heavy gasoline motor", you say "What, only 37 miles?"

In a pure electrical car however you have not only no motor (and its ancillaries) but no transmission and no tank. A lot of saved space and weight.
And since the battery tech becomes better every year (refer i3), it's only a question of time before we'll see very different cars than this. Cars that will rock our minds...

My take is that EVs(including Tesla) are transitional at this point when battery tech and infrastructure are still far off. This type of 40-50 miles of electric range plus ICE makes the most sense right now, as it will take battery tech 4-5 years to advance enough to improve energy density by 30-40%(or shave 300 to 400 lbs).

[x986]

Originally Posted by f31mtl

That just doesn't make sense since the Full EV cars are heavier then the ICE cars. A model S is easily 500 lbs heavier than a M550i. The 530e is even listed as 250 lbs less than a M550i...

I think you're comparing the Model S to the wrong Bimmer. I would put it in with the 7. Actually the 7 weighs about 500 pounds more that the S.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by x986

I think you're comparing the Model S to the wrong Bimmer. I would put it in with the 7. Actually the 7 weighs about 500 pounds more that the S.

uh the lightest model s the single motor one weighs almost 4700 lbs which is the curb weight for a 750 BMW. probably more. the 740i rwd is listed at ~4200 or so on bmwusa.com

it's not a light car.

[ted99]

Originally Posted by ecaedus

the upcoming iX3 might be a better choice imo. This seems like the worst of both worlds, low ev range plus weak ICE engine.

This is my straw man, at the moment. Both my PHEV leases expire in 2020 and my preferred combination is the i3X and the new 330e as their replacements. A 3-yr lease term will put me square in the next generation of solid-state batteries. In the meanwhile, I'll have the 330e for an inter-city car (it's the same size as my former 1994 540i, which I thought was perfect and lol it's just as powerful) and an SUV for my wife's use. It's the fording capability that she needs as her commuting route encounters 12" of water on Houston streets 4-5 times per year. The 330e will weigh less than a Tesla model 3, cost less (BMW tax credits are estimated to continue thru 2023 while Tesla's are already phasing out), give me 45 MPG on a highway trip and the electric range completely meets my everyday use. One of the great things about my current 330e is that I never run the ICE on a short cycle where it does not fully warm up. I can jump in the car and do a 3 mi run to the grocery store without worrying about the effect on the condition of the ICE.
The thing that gives me pause is whether full-leather interior will be available in these cars. I've reached the age where I really like the luxury appearance of a full leather interior and I'm willing to pay the cost (especially with 60% residuals where I'm only paying for 40 % of the cost). The Jag i-pace and the Audi e-Tron both have full leather interiors.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by ted99

This is my straw man, at the moment. Both my PHEV leases expire in 2020 and my preferred combination is the i3X and the new 330e as their replacements. A 3-yr lease term will put me square in the next generation of solid-state batteries. In the meanwhile, I'll have the 330e for an inter-city car (it's the same size as my former 1994 540i, which I thought was perfect and lol it's just as powerful) and an SUV for my wife's use. It's the fording capability that she needs as her commuting route encounters 12" of water on Houston streets 4-5 times per year. The 330e will weigh less than a Tesla model 3, cost less (BMW tax credits are estimated to continue thru 2023 while Tesla's are already phasing out), give me 45 MPG on a highway trip and the electric range completely meets my everyday use. One of the great things about my current 330e is that I never run the ICE on a short cycle where it does not fully warm up. I can jump in the car and do a 3 mi run to the grocery store without worrying about the effect on the condition of the ICE.
The thing that gives me pause is whether full-leather interior will be available in these cars. I've reached the age where I really like the luxury appearance of a full leather interior and I'm willing to pay the cost (especially with 60% residuals where I'm only paying for 40 % of the cost). The Jag i-pace and the Audi e-Tron both have full leather interiors.

Why not the i4, planned to launch around January 2021? Usually, expiring leases can be extended a few months.

[ted99]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Why not the i4, planned to launch around January 2021? Usually, expiring leases can be extended a few months.

Yes, I've thought about that. My mandatory mix is one PHEV and one EV. For instance, if the iX3 is China production-only (per the current info, but could change), that will rule it out. Then, the PHEV could be another X5 or an X3. The driver on that is whether I can do a full leather in a PHEV X3. Then, the EV could be the i4, whose looks I really like and I'm sure it'll have a full leather interior option. I really think i'll be spoiled for choice as there will be the e-Tron, the M-B EQC, the Porsche Taycan, the XC40 (if it's not made in China) and the Jag i-Pace (only if it turns out not to have the famous Jag electrical unreliability). The complicating factor is that I really want my two cars to be from the same manufacturer to ease the control interface transition when switching between cars. Since my two leases end 5/30 and 11/30 2020, I'll have to make a judgement call on what the 2021 model year will bring. I'm thinking, at this time, that BMW will be the one to beat for two reasons: 1) BMW has a lot more experience with electric cars on the road than the others and 2) The BMWCCA $1000 rebate. I will probably extend the 11/2020 lease into 2021, no matter which car I choose, to get the second car into the next calendar year.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by ted99

Yes, I've thought about that. My mandatory mix is one PHEV and one EV. For instance, if the iX3 is China production-only (per the current info, but could change), that will rule it out. Then, the PHEV could be another X5 or an X3. The driver on that is whether I can do a full leather in a PHEV X3. Then, the EV could be the i4, whose looks I really like and I'm sure it'll have a full leather interior option. I really think i'll be spoiled for choice as there will be the e-Tron, the M-B EQC, the Porsche Taycan, the XC40 (if it's not made in China) and the Jag i-Pace (only if it turns out not to have the famous Jag electrical unreliability). The complicating factor is that I really want my two cars to be from the same manufacturer to ease the control interface transition when switching between cars. Since my two leases end 5/30 and 11/30 2020, I'll have to make a judgement call on what the 2021 model year will bring. I'm thinking, at this time, that BMW will be the one to beat for two reasons: 1) BMW has a lot more experience with electric cars on the road than the others and 2) The BMWCCA $1000 rebate. I will probably extend the 11/2020 lease into 2021, no matter which car I choose, to get the second car into the next calendar year.

I understand your approach, with one exception. What is the concern with a BMW plant in China?

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I understand your approach, with one exception. What is the concern with a BMW plant in China?

It's an old stereotype that things made in China are cheap. In fact, most of them are, because of the cheap labor. But then again a $1000 Apple iPhone X is made in China and people have little problem buying those.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by jmg

It's an old stereotype that things made in China are cheap. In fact, most of them are, because of the cheap labor. But then again a $1000 Apple iPhone X is made in China and people have little problem buying those.

Perhaps it is something else (political?), as neither the building, the BMW-designed, ISO certified assembly process, nor the BMW quality standards for suppliers are sensitive to geography.