[JTO24]

I think it all comes down to the actual naming... If you see an Audi with an S5 badge for example, no one will mistake it for an RS5; it's a hard cut-off. Where if you see a car with the M340i badge, it's a lot easier to mistake it for a proper M3 where the lines are blurred a bit more because that ///M is the same on both cars... Audi does this game best where BMW and Merc seem to sell out their skunkworks brands a bit more with regards to badging.

Again, it's not terribly important but I do see the issue some have.

[SCOTT26]

You have to look at it from a German perspective.
M- Sport was conceived to give our sportier fleet expresses.
In the US they are luxury cars, but in Europe they are bought as fleet cars.
The 3er and 5er a slightly more sporting edge, not necessary in performance but also a sportier visual influenced by the M car.

It proved very popular that in many BMW models globally M Sport Packet outsells the standard model. Again customers like that more sportier visual appeal.

MPerformance was conceived to break the taboos that haunted BMW M. Diesel and All Wheel Drive In terms of customer demand.
M.Performance also had its largest success in Europe where legislation
Brought penalties on high performance vehicles.

The early M trifecta of M550d and X5/X6 M50d brought success to the brand because they were not taxed heavily and they offered high performance with less fuel consumption and emissions.

M Performance now caters for models that additionally do have an M model and those that don't. Some of the taboos have been broken but both cars are distinguishable with the M Performance highlighted by cerium grey brightwork on the M Sport compared to the sharper edged aerodynamics, wide tyres and detailing of its sister BMW M model.
And course a back to back Drive certainly reveals the considerable distance between the two.

[ynguldyn]

That's a very longwinded way of saying "we wanted a piece of Audi's S car pie".

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

You have to look at it from a German perspective.
M- Sport was conceived to give our sportier fleet expresses.
In the US they are luxury cars, but in Europe they are bought as fleet cars.
The 3er and 5er a slightly more sporting edge, not necessary in performance but also a sportier visual influenced by the M car.

It proved very popular that in many BMW models globally M Sport Packet outsells the standard model. Again customers like that more sportier visual appeal.

MPerformance was conceived to break the taboos that haunted BMW M. Diesel and All Wheel Drive In terms of customer demand.
M.Performance also had its largest success in Europe where legislation
Brought penalties on high performance vehicles.

The early M trifecta of M550d and X5/X6 M50d brought success to the brand because they were not taxed heavily and they offered high performance with less fuel consumption and emissions.

M Performance now caters for models that additionally do have an M model and those that don't. Some of the taboos have been broken but both cars are distinguishable with the M Performance highlighted by cerium grey brightwork on the M Sport compared to the sharper edged aerodynamics, wide tyres and detailing of its sister BMW M model.
And course a back to back Drive certainly reveals the considerable distance between the two.

....but didn't the sport package (...a'la E46 era, etc.) accomplish that without the badge whoring? Even with the E46 ZHP, the merits of the car were apparent without having to throw ///M badges on the rear of the car, on the side fenders (...like the F3X), etc.

[bmrm396]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

That's a very longwinded way of saying "we wanted a piece of Audi's S car pie".

Agreed. And dont get me wrong, i respect and enjoy all Scott says here but i gotta think even hes tired of having to spend so much time rationalizing, explaining, and just down right having to make excuses for all this nonsense BMW has come up with lately. If you're doing things right as a brand, your products define themselves clearly - shouldnt need to march out all the marketing lingo so people "get it". They really have lost the purity that was well known throughout all auto consumers and revered by those who could never even afford one. Now theyre as much a combination of "well build whatever it takes to make money" along with "hey, throw that infamous letter M onto everything and charge more for it. Americans are stupid, no one will know the difference".

Sort of the definition of a sell-out (though im not sayin they are by any means just to be clear) ... only that many people who have been with the brand for decades (including myself) could see them as such in recent years.

[mbanck]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

....but didn't the sport package (...a'la E46 era, etc.) accomplish that without the badge whoring? Even with the E46 ZHP, the merits of the car were apparent without having to throw ///M badges on the rear of the car, on the side fenders (...like the F3X), etc.

It was called "M Sportpaket" in germany, and it had a lot of M badges in the interior, just not the exterior. I wasn't around back then so don't know whether the M3 owners complained about the M logo on the stick and the steering wheel for non-M cars back then already.

Then BMW invented the lines (Luxury Line, Sport Line, M-Sport (Line?)) for the F3X, and they got a (deletable, in the EU) badge on the side fenders. In hindsight it might have been a clever plan for more M badges, or they just decided to highlght their new lines more prominently, not sure. But (at least in the EU) it wasn't just M badges.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

That's a very longwinded way of saying "we wanted a piece of Audi's S car pie".

Yes but we had M Sport Packets in the nineties.
Everybody followed.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Yes but we had M Sport Packets in the nineties.
Everybody followed.

Exactly: "packet" - as in "optional".

BMW used to say: you want a large motor - sure, it's $5K for the motor and also bigger brakes because we understand you're likely to drive more aggressively and we care about your safety. Everything else - please look at this brochure and let us know what you want.

Audi used to say: you want a large motor? Sure, we'll give it to you if you also pay us for a differently shaped bumper, random trim pieces, "S" stickers, and a special set of wheels (and whatever else there is, Audi people will know). All of that for $10K, please.

BMW looks at that and goes, hmmmmm, we're leaving $5K on the table for each sale of 335i or 545i that doesn't include ZMP, and that ZMP is a perfect money maker because we add just a bit of content there, and everything else simply replaces a standard part with a differently shaped M part, what can we do, hmmmm?

Enter M Performance.

[solstice]

Sport pkg./ZSP: Upgraded wheels, Sport seats, steering wheel and suspension. ~$2k
M-Sport: ZSP + “Fake” M plastics and badges. ~$5k
M performance: M-Sport + bigger brakes and an engine tune. ~$10k.

I don’t really mind the M whoring part but ZSP was the sweet spot of all you need, nothing you don’t to a screaming value. That said I think the M550i is one the best values in BMWs lineup so not all of it is a rip-off. Sadly the M50i X5 did not follow the same value strategy.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by DML

Never owned an Audi, never plan on driving an Audi. 8 bimmers since I was 18 shows my loyalty to the brand, just not satisfied with their current direction. A lot of this type floating around these parts

Your criticism was directed at how bmw applies their performance brand and badge though. It wasn't even directed at the product itself. It just struck me as a superficial criticism. Unfortunately, yes, there are many others here who seem fixated on the letter M in regard to bmw.

If you like the car, enjoy it. Who cares how it's badged, unless you specifically want a badge car. In that case an m-car wasn't the best choice anyway. The average non-enthusiast just sees a bimmer.

[DML]

Originally Posted by Fuller

Your criticism was directed at how bmw applies their performance brand and badge though. It wasn't even directed at the product itself. It just struck me as a superficial criticism. Unfortunately, yes, there are many others here who seem fixated on the letter M in regard to bmw.

If you like the car, enjoy it. Who cares how it's badged, unless you specifically want a badge car. In that case an m-car wasn't the best choice anyway. The average non-enthusiast just sees a bimmer.

Oh boy.......

[bobloblaw]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

That's a very longwinded way of saying "we wanted a piece of Audi's S car pie".

It makes sense to do it though. I remember when the E90 335i was competing with the S4 people didn't really comprehend it. If a casual shopper was cross-shopping these, they would probably assume the S4 was automatically better because of the S designation. Mercedes even has the 43AMG cars to compete with Audi S and BMW Mxx0i cars. So I can see why MB and BMW didn't want S4 vs c350 vs 340i.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by DML

Oh boy.......

My reaction exactly when I have to read yet another post whining that there are too many models with "M" in the model number. Who gives a s*&#. You can't change it, so deal with it already.

[DML]

Originally Posted by Fuller

My reaction exactly when I have to read yet another post whining that there are too many models with "M" in the model number. Who gives a s*&#. You can't change it, so deal with it already.

We're discussing cars, only cars. Obviously you have issues that should be addressed, you're in the wrong place. Only advice I can offer is maybe for you to take a deep breath & back away from the keyboard, take care my friend and be well

[mat9]

Are people really suggesting BMW should not cater to a segment of the market out of consideration to the ego of M car owners?
Could be done differently sure, but unless you want to go get a marketing/branding degree and apply for a job with them there isn't much else to do.
To help everyone sleep at night, also consider that the sale of all high volume cars being standard or m sport versions help keep the final price low on m cars which are fairly low volume models.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by DML

We're discussing cars, only cars. Obviously you have issues that should be addressed, you're in the wrong place. Only advice I can offer is maybe for you to take a deep breath & back away from the keyboard, take care my friend and be well

I'm doing fine You should consider taking your own advice though. You're the one that's so concerned about how bmw markets it's products.

[ynguldyn]

Is this really necessary?

[bmrm396]

Amen to that ^^^

[JSaid]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Yes but we had M Sport Packets in the nineties.
Everybody followed.

Audi took a piece of BMW’s M car pie

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

Is this really necessary?

No

[pyrat15]

Originally Posted by bobloblaw

It makes sense to do it though. I remember when the E90 335i was competing with the S4 people didn't really comprehend it. If a casual shopper was cross-shopping these, they would probably assume the S4 was automatically better because of the S designation. Mercedes even has the 43AMG cars to compete with Audi S and BMW Mxx0i cars. So I can see why MB and BMW didn't want S4 vs c350 vs 340i.

This seems comprehensible. I understand that there should be a category which is in between the regular BMW AG models and the BMW M GmbH models. (such as Audi "S"). However, the designation of those models is the thing that makes this discussion necessary, as "///M240i" is very similar to "///M2". I am also not a fan of adding the badge all over the car. A possibility would be to amend the ///M logo for those M Performance cars like VW does is with R and R Line. There, the "Line" is integrated to the logo so you know its not the proper R. (Although R Line is only an exterior package, the model which you could compare to BMW M Performance and Audi S would be the GTI).



For me this would be the best solution by creating an own logo for the M Performance brand. Opinions?

[Sedan_Clan]

I'm still waiting to see what these colors look like.