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      09-09-2019, 11:07 AM   #23
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As an elder member of this forum I deplore the ageist and sexist sweeping sentiment in this post.

I cannot believe in this day and age anyone would write this type of comment.
I'm a middle aged man and drove a 3 series in my late 30's and 40's, and I don't see many 20 something's being able to afford a brand new 3 series or BMW that costs well over $50k. If you look at the drivers of 3 series, most of them range from being 35+, and have a family, the typical buyer of luxury cars in general is typically middle aged. Of course there are some owners who are younger, but they aren't a large demographic of owners and represent a smaller group in compared to the gereral age group of owners. Also how is this sexist at all, I literally stated men and woman drive 3 series???

I don't see what there is to be offended by at all by stating the simple fact that "older/middle aged" (as in 35+) are one of the larger demographics of luxury cars.
Most of us who aren't taking an emotional position completely understand what you meant. People on these forums tend to believe that they represent the larger buying market, but that is a misconception. The "enthusiast" is but a small percentage of the buying public, and if you take an honest look at how companies like BMW have shifted away from the raw, sporty, visceral driving experience, it's pretty clear. The general public wants what we've been getting; more premium, less sport. More automation, less engagement. More comfort, less firmness/road feedback. BMW and other companies have to change with the times. You're also correct about the general age demographic. Your average 3 Series driver is NOT some twenty-something. They are usually in the 30's or older and are working professionals.
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      09-09-2019, 11:19 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbkirk View Post


As an elder member of this forum I deplore the ageist and sexist sweeping sentiment in this post.

I cannot believe in this day and age anyone would write this type of comment.
I'm a middle aged man and drove a 3 series in my late 30's and 40's, and I don't see many 20 something's being able to afford a brand new 3 series or BMW that costs well over $50k. If you look at the drivers of 3 series, most of them range from being 35+, and have a family, the typical buyer of luxury cars in general is typically middle aged. Of course there are some owners who are younger, but they aren't a large demographic of owners and represent a smaller group in compared to the gereral age group of owners. Also how is this sexist at all, I literally stated men and woman drive 3 series???

I don't see what there is to be offended by at all by stating the simple fact that "older/middle aged" (as in 35+) are one of the larger demographics of luxury cars.
Most of us who aren't taking an emotional position completely understand what you meant. People on these forums tend to believe that they represent the larger buying market, but that is a misconception. The "enthusiast" is but a small percentage of the buying public, and if you take an honest look at how companies like BMW have shifted away from the raw, sporty, visceral driving experience, it's pretty clear. The general public wants what we've been getting; more premium, less sport. More automation, less engagement. More comfort, less firmness/road feedback. BMW and other companies have to change with the times. You're also correct about the general age demographic. Your average 3 Series driver is NOT some twenty-something. They are usually in the 30's and are working professionals.
Exactly, even though I typically rant and rave about BMW's decisions, I do see the logic behind them, especially since what they're currently doing is working as sales are for the first time in a few years, ahead of Mercedes, who's been beating BMW in sales since the end of the Bangle Era.
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      09-09-2019, 11:28 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
as the common buyer of a BMW 3 series is a middle aged man or woman who couldn't possibly even know or care what the 30, in 330i stands for, and doesn't care about sports cars what so ever, they care more for comfort, style, and brand prestige.
It is the sweeping statement (in bold above). That I was referring to.

I will not be responding to other comments. I have stated my view and thatís it.
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      09-09-2019, 12:09 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Tam the Bam View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
as the common buyer of a BMW 3 series is a middle aged man or woman who couldn't possibly even know or care what the 30, in 330i stands for, and doesn't care about sports cars what so ever, they care more for comfort, style, and brand prestige.
It is the sweeping statement (in bold above). That I was referring to.

I will not be responding to other comments. I have stated my view and that’s it.
....but he's right.
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      09-09-2019, 12:15 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
as the common buyer of a BMW 3 series is a middle aged man or woman who couldn't possibly even know or care what the 30, in 330i stands for, and doesn't care about sports cars what so ever, they care more for comfort, style, and brand prestige.
It is the sweeping statement (in bold above). That I was referring to.

I will not be responding to other comments. I have stated my view and that's it.
Well, most BMW buyers don't know what they buy, in today's society the badge on a front of a car is what a good portion of people care about hence why cars like the CLA exist (there's also examples of it on this forum with how some of the members here view the Genesis G70 with no actual experience behind the wheel, they just see it as "HyundaiJunk").

Referring to the statement in bold, I wrote that because its a real conversation I've had with multiple BMW owners. Here's one of the few. When I was at the dealer looking at the M340i, someone came up to me and asked how much I paid for my CLS, he said it looks really good and expensive and that it would impress a bunch of people and even quote on quote "get bitches". While accepting the compliments I asked what he drove. He said a 740iL, to which I said thats a nice car. He told me, he doesn't like it simply because the S class looks more expensive and would look more impressive to his friends. I asked, well don't you like parts of your car, like the nice engine, the Inline 6 is really smooth and has a good amount of power. He then asked me what an inline 6 was. He said he just assumed he had some type of V8 under the hood because of the "40i" badge, and didn't even know that the "L" in the badging referred to long-wheelbase. This is one of many similar conversations, from people thinking their 335i has a 3.5L V6, to people not even knowing their cars have turbos in them, or people thinking that German cars are the most reliable.

These people couldn't care less about sports cars nor care about what engine their car actually has, in today's world, having the kidney grills, 4 rings, or 3 pointed star on the front of your car, is something to aspire to, and have to feel/look more impressive. Its like the people who buy 5 year old S-Classes with a shit ton of problems to look cool when instead they could just buy a new and reliable accord. The accord is the better car, but not the more impressive looking and cooler car.
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      09-09-2019, 02:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Well, most BMW buyers don't know what they buy, in today's society the badge on a front of a car is what a good portion of people care about hence why cars like the CLA exist (there's also examples of it on this forum with how some of the members here view the Genesis G70 with no actual experience behind the wheel, they just see it as "HyundaiJunk").

Referring to the statement in bold, I wrote that because its a real conversation I've had with multiple BMW owners. Here's one of the few. When I was at the dealer looking at the M340i, someone came up to me and asked how much I paid for my CLS, he said it looks really good and expensive and that it would impress a bunch of people and even quote on quote "get bitches". While accepting the compliments I asked what he drove. He said a 740iL, to which I said thats a nice car. He told me, he doesn't like it simply because the S class looks more expensive and would look more impressive to his friends. I asked, well don't you like parts of your car, like the nice engine, the Inline 6 is really smooth and has a good amount of power. He then asked me what an inline 6 was. He said he just assumed he had some type of V8 under the hood because of the "40i" badge, and didn't even know that the "L" in the badging referred to long-wheelbase. This is one of many similar conversations, from people thinking their 335i has a 3.5L V6, to people not even knowing their cars have turbos in them, or people thinking that German cars are the most reliable.

These people couldn't care less about sports cars nor care about what engine their car actually has, in today's world, having the kidney grills, 4 rings, or 3 pointed star on the front of your car, is something to aspire to, and have to feel/look more impressive. Its like the people who buy 5 year old S-Classes with a shit ton of problems to look cool when instead they could just buy a new and reliable accord. The accord is the better car, but not the more impressive looking and cooler car.
When I was doing the paperwork for my M340i, I was chatting it up with the sales manager, and we began to get candid on a few topics... one thing he revealed to me is the majority of the BMW lessee's he writes up do not have good credit and can barely afford their purchase. Occasionally an old man will come along and pay cash for a loaded 7 series, but most folks are just trying to get their hands on that badge. Food for thought.
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      09-09-2019, 03:03 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Well, most BMW buyers don't know what they buy, in today's society the badge on a front of a car is what a good portion of people care about hence why cars like the CLA exist (there's also examples of it on this forum with how some of the members here view the Genesis G70 with no actual experience behind the wheel, they just see it as "HyundaiJunk").

Referring to the statement in bold, I wrote that because its a real conversation I've had with multiple BMW owners. Here's one of the few. When I was at the dealer looking at the M340i, someone came up to me and asked how much I paid for my CLS, he said it looks really good and expensive and that it would impress a bunch of people and even quote on quote "get bitches". While accepting the compliments I asked what he drove. He said a 740iL, to which I said thats a nice car. He told me, he doesn't like it simply because the S class looks more expensive and would look more impressive to his friends. I asked, well don't you like parts of your car, like the nice engine, the Inline 6 is really smooth and has a good amount of power. He then asked me what an inline 6 was. He said he just assumed he had some type of V8 under the hood because of the "40i" badge, and didn't even know that the "L" in the badging referred to long-wheelbase. This is one of many similar conversations, from people thinking their 335i has a 3.5L V6, to people not even knowing their cars have turbos in them, or people thinking that German cars are the most reliable.

These people couldn't care less about sports cars nor care about what engine their car actually has, in today's world, having the kidney grills, 4 rings, or 3 pointed star on the front of your car, is something to aspire to, and have to feel/look more impressive. Its like the people who buy 5 year old S-Classes with a shit ton of problems to look cool when instead they could just buy a new and reliable accord. The accord is the better car, but not the more impressive looking and cooler car.
When I was doing the paperwork for my M340i, I was chatting it up with the sales manager, and we began to get candid on a few topics... one thing he revealed to me is the majority of the BMW lessee's he writes up do not have good credit and can barely afford their purchase. Occasionally an old man will come along and pay cash for a loaded 7 series, but most folks are just trying to get their hands on that badge. Food for thought.
This probably largely depends on where you live. I am 39, have excellent credit and can afford to lay down cash on a purchase but that would be a terrible investment. I'd rather keep my cash in a brokerage or interest bearing account. I lease and I put 0 down.
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      09-09-2019, 03:14 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmzorba09 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Well, most BMW buyers don't know what they buy, in today's society the badge on a front of a car is what a good portion of people care about hence why cars like the CLA exist (there's also examples of it on this forum with how some of the members here view the Genesis G70 with no actual experience behind the wheel, they just see it as "HyundaiJunk").

Referring to the statement in bold, I wrote that because its a real conversation I've had with multiple BMW owners. Here's one of the few. When I was at the dealer looking at the M340i, someone came up to me and asked how much I paid for my CLS, he said it looks really good and expensive and that it would impress a bunch of people and even quote on quote "get bitches". While accepting the compliments I asked what he drove. He said a 740iL, to which I said thats a nice car. He told me, he doesn't like it simply because the S class looks more expensive and would look more impressive to his friends. I asked, well don't you like parts of your car, like the nice engine, the Inline 6 is really smooth and has a good amount of power. He then asked me what an inline 6 was. He said he just assumed he had some type of V8 under the hood because of the "40i" badge, and didn't even know that the "L" in the badging referred to long-wheelbase. This is one of many similar conversations, from people thinking their 335i has a 3.5L V6, to people not even knowing their cars have turbos in them, or people thinking that German cars are the most reliable.

These people couldn't care less about sports cars nor care about what engine their car actually has, in today's world, having the kidney grills, 4 rings, or 3 pointed star on the front of your car, is something to aspire to, and have to feel/look more impressive. Its like the people who buy 5 year old S-Classes with a shit ton of problems to look cool when instead they could just buy a new and reliable accord. The accord is the better car, but not the more impressive looking and cooler car.
When I was doing the paperwork for my M340i, I was chatting it up with the sales manager, and we began to get candid on a few topics... one thing he revealed to me is the majority of the BMW lessee's he writes up do not have good credit and can barely afford their purchase. Occasionally an old man will come along and pay cash for a loaded 7 series, but most folks are just trying to get their hands on that badge. Food for thought.
This probably largely depends on where you live. I am 39, have excellent credit and can afford to lay down cash on a purchase but that would be a terrible investment. I'd rather keep my cash in a brokerage or interest bearing account. I lease and I put 0 down.
Demographics vary for sure, but it is true that people do reach above their means much of the time. There's probably more crappy credit out there than there is good credit, and that's largely due to bad money management and over-extension.
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      09-09-2019, 03:19 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmzorba09 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
Well, most BMW buyers don't know what they buy, in today's society the badge on a front of a car is what a good portion of people care about hence why cars like the CLA exist (there's also examples of it on this forum with how some of the members here view the Genesis G70 with no actual experience behind the wheel, they just see it as "HyundaiJunk").

Referring to the statement in bold, I wrote that because its a real conversation I've had with multiple BMW owners. Here's one of the few. When I was at the dealer looking at the M340i, someone came up to me and asked how much I paid for my CLS, he said it looks really good and expensive and that it would impress a bunch of people and even quote on quote "get bitches". While accepting the compliments I asked what he drove. He said a 740iL, to which I said thats a nice car. He told me, he doesn't like it simply because the S class looks more expensive and would look more impressive to his friends. I asked, well don't you like parts of your car, like the nice engine, the Inline 6 is really smooth and has a good amount of power. He then asked me what an inline 6 was. He said he just assumed he had some type of V8 under the hood because of the "40i" badge, and didn't even know that the "L" in the badging referred to long-wheelbase. This is one of many similar conversations, from people thinking their 335i has a 3.5L V6, to people not even knowing their cars have turbos in them, or people thinking that German cars are the most reliable.

These people couldn't care less about sports cars nor care about what engine their car actually has, in today's world, having the kidney grills, 4 rings, or 3 pointed star on the front of your car, is something to aspire to, and have to feel/look more impressive. Its like the people who buy 5 year old S-Classes with a shit ton of problems to look cool when instead they could just buy a new and reliable accord. The accord is the better car, but not the more impressive looking and cooler car.
When I was doing the paperwork for my M340i, I was chatting it up with the sales manager, and we began to get candid on a few topics... one thing he revealed to me is the majority of the BMW lessee's he writes up do not have good credit and can barely afford their purchase. Occasionally an old man will come along and pay cash for a loaded 7 series, but most folks are just trying to get their hands on that badge. Food for thought.
This probably largely depends on where you live. I am 39, have excellent credit and can afford to lay down cash on a purchase but that would be a terrible investment. I'd rather keep my cash in a brokerage or interest bearing account. I lease and I put 0 down.
Demographics vary for sure, but it is true that people do reach above their means much of the time. There's probably more crappy credit out there than there is good credit, and that's largely due to bad money management and over-extension.
Agreed
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      09-09-2019, 03:46 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmzorba09 View Post
This probably largely depends on where you live. I am 39, have excellent credit and can afford to lay down cash on a purchase but that would be a terrible investment. I'd rather keep my cash in a brokerage or interest bearing account. I lease and I put 0 down.
That closely sums up my position also. And that's what started the whole conversation with the sales manager in the first place. Apparently my FICO is higher than what he usually sees and I could tell he was surprised... so I said, "Is is strange to see a score that high?" and this is when he started telling me about the average person who leases a car from his dealership. He tells me how poor to middling credit scores will get you hosed on a lease... gave me an example of a similar M340i he leased a few days prior for $200 more a month.

FYI, this dealership is located in the the silicone valley, where there is supposedly lots of wealth... but I stand by my general/observed opinion that most people spend their money just as fast as they can make it and don't have the financial intelligence and wherewithal to accumulate wealth.
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      09-09-2019, 03:58 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmzorba09 View Post
This probably largely depends on where you live. I am 39, have excellent credit and can afford to lay down cash on a purchase but that would be a terrible investment. I'd rather keep my cash in a brokerage or interest bearing account. I lease and I put 0 down.
That closely sums up my position also. And that's what started the whole conversation with the sales manager in the first place. Apparently my FICO is higher than what he usually sees and I could tell he was surprised... so I said, "Is is strange to see a score that high?" and this is when he started telling me about the average person who leases a car from his dealership. He tells me how poor to middling credit scores will get you hosed on a lease... gave me an example of a similar M340i he leased a few days prior for $200 more a month.

FYI, this dealership is located in the the silicone valley, where there is supposedly lots of wealth... but I stand by my general/observed opinion that most people spend their money just as fast as they can make it and don't have the financial intelligence and wherewithal to accumulate wealth.
Well, despite my credit, after seeing some of the lease deals others are getting on this site, I still feel like I got hosed on my lease because I was working with a s*** dealership and predatory sales representative/office. But I was in a hurry to get into a new vehicle and the M340 was the only vehicle I was considering. They just won't get my business next time around.
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      09-09-2019, 04:08 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmzorba09 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmzorba09 View Post
This probably largely depends on where you live. I am 39, have excellent credit and can afford to lay down cash on a purchase but that would be a terrible investment. I'd rather keep my cash in a brokerage or interest bearing account. I lease and I put 0 down.
That closely sums up my position also. And that's what started the whole conversation with the sales manager in the first place. Apparently my FICO is higher than what he usually sees and I could tell he was surprised... so I said, "Is is strange to see a score that high?" and this is when he started telling me about the average person who leases a car from his dealership. He tells me how poor to middling credit scores will get you hosed on a lease... gave me an example of a similar M340i he leased a few days prior for $200 more a month.

FYI, this dealership is located in the the silicone valley, where there is supposedly lots of wealth... but I stand by my general/observed opinion that most people spend their money just as fast as they can make it and don't have the financial intelligence and wherewithal to accumulate wealth.
Well, despite my credit, after seeing some of the lease deals others are getting on this site, I still feel like I got hosed on my lease because I was working with a s*** dealership and predatory sales representative/office. But I was in a hurry to get into a new vehicle and the M340 was the only vehicle I was considering. They just won't get my business next time around.
Keep in mind that things vary from state to state. A good dealership is imperative though, so definitely don't give that dealership your business again.
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      09-09-2019, 04:14 PM   #35
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+1. Read this and thought to myself what a joke of a review. Extremely biased and totally subjective. Everything you mentioned on this post is exactly what I thought. They cant even do basic math lol.

Sounds like the writer of this article cannot afford himself a BMW... I mean who compares a Volvo to a BMW?
The review is generally positive. All it says is that it's not the MOST dynamic or the MOST luxurious. It says it's still a dynamic car, is a noticeable improvement over the F30, and the only thing about it is that it is not the leader in any one thing. That is almost objectively true. The G20 is beat out at least by Merc and Audi as far as interior goes. The Giulia is hands down a more sporty car. The G70 is by far a better value. The only thing that is a bit subjective is the interior, but very few people rate the BMW as having the better interior. Technology and interior quality is definitely better in the newer Audis. (And I hate Audis).

That still makes BMW one of the best complete packages, though. Sure Alfa is sportier, but who wants to drive that unreliable hunk of junk every day? Sure the Audi has a nice interior, but it's not fun to drive. The Mercedes is a good car but it has a different character from the BMW. The G70 is a great car but the BMW is better overall, you just have to pay more for it.

So why does everyone interpret this as a bad review? It's not. It's just indicative of how BMW is no longer the only sport sedan game in the industry. Others have caught up on the formula. As a consumer, that's a GOOD thing. That keeps BMW on its toes and keeps pricing competitive.
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      09-09-2019, 04:17 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by premier3is View Post
+1. Read this and thought to myself what a joke of a review. Extremely biased and totally subjective. Everything you mentioned on this post is exactly what I thought. They cant even do basic math lol.

Sounds like the writer of this article cannot afford himself a BMW... I mean who compares a Volvo to a BMW?
The review is generally positive. All it says is that it's not the MOST dynamic or the MOST luxurious. It says it's still a dynamic car, is a noticeable improvement over the F30, and the only thing about it is that it is not the leader in any one thing. That is almost objectively true. The G20 is beat out at least by Merc and Audi as far as interior goes. The Giulia is hands down a more sporty car. The G70 is by far a better value. The only thing that is a bit subjective is the interior, but very few people rate the BMW as having the better interior. Technology and interior quality is definitely better in the newer Audis. (And I hate Audis).

That still makes BMW one of the best complete packages, though. Sure Alfa is sportier, but who wants to drive that unreliable hunk of junk every day? Sure the Audi has a nice interior, but it's not fun to drive. The Mercedes is a good car but it has a different character from the BMW. The G70 is a great car but the BMW is better overall, you just have to pay more for it.

So why does everyone interpret this as a bad review? It's not. It's just indicative of how BMW is no longer the only sport sedan game in the industry. Others have caught up on the formula. As a consumer, that's a GOOD thing. That keeps BMW on its toes and keeps pricing competitive.
The title of the opinion piece is "good enough but not great" ... I wouldn't call that a good review. Also, my gripe with the review is that it is disingenuous, lazy and bias, and uses false premise to arrive at a conclusion.
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      09-09-2019, 04:18 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by premier3is View Post
+1. Read this and thought to myself what a joke of a review. Extremely biased and totally subjective. Everything you mentioned on this post is exactly what I thought. They cant even do basic math lol.

Sounds like the writer of this article cannot afford himself a BMW... I mean who compares a Volvo to a BMW?
The review is generally positive. All it says is that it's not the MOST dynamic or the MOST luxurious. It says it's still a dynamic car, is a noticeable improvement over the F30, and the only thing about it is that it is not the leader in any one thing. That is almost objectively true. The G20 is beat out at least by Merc and Audi as far as interior goes. The Giulia is hands down a more sporty car. The G70 is by far a better value. The only thing that is a bit subjective is the interior, but very few people rate the BMW as having the better interior. Technology and interior quality is definitely better in the newer Audis. (And I hate Audis).

That still makes BMW one of the best complete packages, though. Sure Alfa is sportier, but who wants to drive that unreliable hunk of junk every day? Sure the Audi has a nice interior, but it's not fun to drive. The Mercedes is a good car but it has a different character from the BMW. The G70 is a great car but the BMW is better overall, you just have to pay more for it.

So why does everyone interpret this as a bad review? It's not. It's just indicative of how BMW is no longer the only sport sedan game in the industry. Others have caught up on the formula. As a consumer, that's a GOOD thing. That keeps BMW on its toes and keeps pricing competitive.
Very well articulated. I agree with your assessment 100%.
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      09-09-2019, 04:18 PM   #38
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It is the sweeping statement (in bold above). That I was referring to.

I will not be responding to other comments. I have stated my view and thatís it.
I think you misunderstand the original comment. They weren't saying that people are clueless because they are middle-aged. They're saying people are just clueless in general and that the average buyer of a 3 series is in that age range. Considering 99.999% of us are a man or a woman, that part doesn't indicate any type of sexism at all.
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      09-10-2019, 11:06 PM   #39
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Lol this thread is a circlejerk. Everybody out here trying to defend their car.

The general consensus of G20 reviews have been the same: improved, but meh. It doesn't stand out in any one area like 3-series of the past did. The competition has caught up and BMW has played it safe since 2012. It's a nice car, it's desirable, but not a must-have.
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      09-10-2019, 11:09 PM   #40
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This thread is full of people defending their purchase.

The general consensus of G20 reviews have been the same: improved, but meh. It doesn't stand out in any one area like 3-series of the past did. The competition has caught up and BMW has played it safe since 2012. It's a nice car, it's desirable, but not a must-have.
If you say so it must be true
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      09-11-2019, 02:11 PM   #41
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Lol this thread is a circlejerk. Everybody out here trying to defend their car.

The general consensus of G20 reviews have been the same: improved, but meh. It doesn't stand out in any one area like 3-series of the past did. The competition has caught up and BMW has played it safe since 2012. It's a nice car, it's desirable, but not a must-have.
....and ALL reviews do not say the same thing. Many reviews clearly state the G20 is the best 3 series to date ( straight pipes, top speed and others you can see for yourself). Fact check.
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      09-11-2019, 02:14 PM   #42
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....and ALL reviews do not say the same thing. Many reviews clearly state the G20 is the best 3 series to date ( straight pipes, top speed and others you can see for yourself). Fact check.
That's more or less what he said.......but that has nothing to do with how it stacks up to it's current competition.
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      09-11-2019, 03:22 PM   #43
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....and ALL reviews do not say the same thing. Many reviews clearly state the G20 is the best 3 series to date ( straight pipes, top speed and others you can see for yourself). Fact check.
#1 - I wouldn't say TheStraightPipes are a good source of judgement as per which generation of 3 series is best, as they likely haven't driven every generation, and they've mainly grew up in modern times, so of course a faster and newer tech filled car will definitely appeal more to them.

#2 No newer generation of 3 series will ever be "the best 3 series" simply because of how much technology, safety standards, and ever growing weight and size have made new cars even more isolated from the road compared to their past generations.

The G20 is good, and a big improvement from the F30, but I would never refer to it as the "best 3 series of all time," in my opinion, the Alfa Giulia is really more of a modern 3 series than the G20.
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      09-11-2019, 03:33 PM   #44
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That's more or less what he said.......but that has nothing to do with how it stacks up to it's current competition.
"More or Less". You tell me is it more of what he said or less of what he said? Because if you go back and read what was written- it is not what was conveyed.
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