[Mako]

I have a X3MC right now and I can't stand the lag. It's only at the start from a dead stop but it's horrible. Once going the car has insane power but they need to figure out how to launch it better without having to use launch control every time. It really defeats a lot of the benefits that come with AWD if there is no power for the first second...

Greatest example is look at CD 0-60 vs 5-60 time

The 4.6-4.7 second 5-60 is what you get at a stop light. It's sad, I think my Old M3 would take it. But with launch control it's 3.3. Insane difference.

Sure the M3 might be 2.9-3.0 with launch control but I bet it's 4.2 without it. Which means not much improvement over current M3 for stop light starts. I realize that's not everything but it is something that will be in your face every day you drive it...

For this reason when my lease is up in 2 years I may go to something else. Would be tough dealing with the lag for another 3 years.

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by Mako

I have a X3MC right now and I can't stand the lag. It's only at the start from a dead stop but it's horrible. Once going the car has insane power

If you notice, I've been bashing the S58 in the X3MC all along. Because I'm a very serious potential buyer of the G82C or CS, as a daily commuter in the downtown.

I chose to ignore how the already owner defend their purchase, because I understand exactly why they feel the way they do. No point in making them unhappy in a RE: format.

I've been doing the X3MC for everything from street driving, high speed, BMW local road course (where I even did hours of hours drifting in X3MC. I can post a video of that, but that'd be when I start a stand-alone thread for lag discussion).

One scenario in which I'm particularly frustrated with the X3MC is, when cursing at speed, let's say cruising at 2k5 in sport mode, you floor it and get instantly a few gears drop to 4k5-5k. You'd think now full power is all yours, well, NO, not remotely true. Even at 4k5+, the turbo still lags and need one second or two for spool up. What's even more ridiculous, the build up from 4k5 is so slow that you don't even get full power at fuel cutoff! Then it upshifts, dropping back to 5k, now the full power. Think about it, pedal to metal, kick down, and full power is not available until the next gear...

I'm telling everyone yes the X3MC is that laggy. Unless you're some kind of a crazy driver, winding up RPM in sport all the time, you'll be dealing with a very sluggish car most of time.

Quite a few owners are doing too many high speed to stay in off boost to really bother. No mention track junkies need nothing under 3k5.

There is some hope for the M3/4 though:
1) The Alpina B3 is using the same S58 and they seem to find more low down torque, assuming they didn't custom spec the turbo.
2) Reports say M3/4 have 50NM (37lbft) of peak torque than the SUV counterpart, there're probably some improvement work already done in it.

Sean

[bm323]

Originally Posted by Mako

I have a X3MC right now and I can't stand the lag. It's only at the start from a dead stop but it's horrible. Once going the car has insane power but they need to figure out how to launch it better without having to use launch control every time. It really defeats a lot of the benefits that come with AWD if there is no power for the first second...

Greatest example is look at CD 0-60 vs 5-60 time

The 4.6-4.7 second 5-60 is what you get at a stop light. It's sad, I think my Old M3 would take it. But with launch control it's 3.3. Insane difference.

Sure the M3 might be 2.9-3.0 with launch control but I bet it's 4.2 without it. Which means not much improvement over current M3 for stop light starts. I realize that's not everything but it is something that will be in your face every day you drive it...

For this reason when my lease is up in 2 years I may go to something else. Would be tough dealing with the lag for another 3 years.

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

...
One scenario in which I'm particularly frustrated with the X3MC is, when cursing at speed, let's say cruising at 2k5 in sport mode, you floor it and get instantly a few gears drop to 4k5-5k. You'd think now full power is all yours, well, NO, not remotely true. Even at 4k5+, the turbo still lags and need one second or two for spool up. What's even more ridiculous, the build up from 4k5 is so slow that you don't even get full power at fuel cutoff! Then it upshifts, dropping back to 5k, now the full power. Think about it, pedal to metal, kick down, and full power is not available until the next gear...

I'm telling everyone yes the X3MC is that laggy. Unless you're some kind of a crazy driver, winding up RPM in sport all the time, you'll be dealing with a very sluggish car most of time.

Quite a few owners are doing too many high speed to stay in off boost to really bother. No mention track junkies need nothing under 3k5.

There is some hope for the M3/4 though:
1) The Alpina B3 is using the same S58 and they seem to find more low down torque, assuming they didn't custom spec the turbo.
2) Reports say M3/4 have 50NM (37lbft) of peak torque than the SUV counterpart, there're probably some improvement work already done in it.

Sean

Any little turbo lag in the G80/82 is gonna be a much bigger problem than the grille. The other elephantine issue is G80/82's steering feel (compared to the F80/82).

[Mako]

Originally Posted by bm323

Any little turbo lag in the G80/82 is gonna be a much bigger problem than the grille. The other elephantine issue is G80/82's steering feel (compared to the F80/82).

100% agree, the grill I can get over more than the turbo lag

in fact the grill is growing on me because its a "shark nose" and I have a thing for sharks...

imagine if they just gave this thing a hybrid setup, electrified AWD, could have had an insane car (550hp, 0-60 in 2.6 with no lag).
I think thats what Mercedes is thinking for next AMG (will find out in the next year I guess).

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Mako

100% agree, the grill I can get over more than the turbo lag

in fact the grill is growing on me because its a "shark nose" and I have a thing for sharks...

imagine if they just gave this thing a hybrid setup, electrified AWD, could have had an insane car (550hp, 0-60 in 2.6 with no lag).
I think thats what Mercedes is thinking for next AMG (will find out in the next year I guess).

The G8X seem to be ~800 lbs lighter than the X3M and have an updated version of the S58.

Both are good reasons to expect acceleration lag to be significantly less and as a result the G8X to be an overall much quicker car.

But if the gen2 MHEV then is added in a few years (M3 LCI maybe) it sure won’t hurt

[Mako]

Originally Posted by solstice

The G8X seem to be ~800 lbs lighter than the X3M and have an updated version of the S58.

Both are good reasons to expect acceleration lag to be significantly less and as a result the G8X to be an overall much quicker car.

But if the gen2 MHEV then is added in a few years (M3 LCI maybe) it sure won't hurt

Where gave they mentioned upgraded engine? Same power... X3M just came out a year ago...
Just like M5 and X5M share engines.

Not sure about 800 lbs lighter. 450-500 more like it. Unless M3 with AWD will weigh 3500 lbs which I seriously doubt.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Mako

Where gave they mentioned upgraded engine? Same power... X3M just came out a year ago...
Just like M5 and X5M share engines.

Not sure about 800 lbs lighter. 450-500 more like it. Unless M3 with AWD will weigh 3500 lbs which I seriously doubt.

X3M is 4600+ lbs. The G8X seem to land below 3800 lbs.
lemetier has a comment here that the S58 in the G8X is another revision than of what’s in the X3M and his information has been legit.

Update, this is lemetier’s comment:

“The S58 in the G8x is the 3rd variant (X3/4M Typ 1, Alpina Typ 2). It doesn't have the same characteristics as the other two. Additional variants will follow.”

[robopp]

Originally Posted by solstice

X3M is 4600+ lbs. The G8X seem to land below 3800 lbs.
lemetier has a comment here that the S58 in the G8X is another revision than of what’s in the X3M and his information has been legit.

Update, this is lemetier’s comment:

“The S58 in the G8x is the 3rd variant (X3/4M Typ 1, Alpina Typ 2). It doesn't have the same characteristics as the other two. Additional variants will follow.”

I find that comment very interesting. So if it's a different motor are the new X3Ms going to get it? Also, what could they change that would effect the turbo lag being reported by the X3M group without changing the output? I'll add that it certainly has turbo lag, but not that much. S58 loves to rev out though.

[xlover]

Originally Posted by robopp

I find that comment very interesting. So if it's a different motor are the new X3Ms going to get it? Also, what could they change that would effect the turbo lag being reported by the X3M group without changing the output? I'll add that it certainly has turbo lag, but not that much. S58 loves to rev out though.

A couple threads addressing the same topic so this may be redundant if merged....

During the the X3M/X4M launch a few ppl who were at early M launch events noted that the bmw officials told them the suvs were tuned for suv driving expectations. (You will need to dig through that forum to read the specifics) Interpreted as softer off the line. Whether that is true or not we will find out, but the inside info referring to multiple versions certainly backs that up.

[robopp]

Originally Posted by xlover

A couple threads adds sign the same topic so this may be redundant if merged....

During the the X3M/X4M launch a few ppl who were at early M launch events noted that the bmw officials told them the suvs were tuned for suv driving expectations. (You will need to dig through that forum to read the specifics) Interpreted as softer off the line. Whether that is true or not we will find out, but the inside info referring to multiple versions certainly backs that up.

Interesting. Got it. Very curious to see the responsiveness of the G80 looks like since most people attribute the off the line lag to turbo lag.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by robopp

Interesting. Got it. Very curious to see the responsiveness of the G80 looks like since most people attribute the off the line lag to turbo lag.

Kinda interesting watching this whole show.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by robopp

Interesting. Got it. Very curious to see the responsiveness of the G80 looks like since most people attribute the off the line lag to turbo lag.

It will probably take until the first bimmerposter get their hands on one until we know for sure but as far as I recall none of test drive reports of the pre-production cars mentioned excessive lag and the Alpina B3 reviews praise that S58 version’s responsiveness so I can’t say I’m concerned.

Thinking about it, I can’t come up with a single concern I have left. Except if that paid subscription garbage is coming.

[Holset]

Originally Posted by robopp

I find that comment very interesting. So if it's a different motor are the new X3Ms going to get it? Also, what could they change that would effect the turbo lag being reported by the X3M group without changing the output? I'll add that it certainly has turbo lag, but not that much. S58 loves to rev out though.

BMW has said that the M3/M4 are going to have up to 650nm of torque.
Thats 50nm more than in the X3M/X4M so some type of change are done to the new S58.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by robopp

Also, what could they change that would effect the turbo lag being reported by the X3M group without changing the output?

I think there are more than one trick here, one of the most obvious being improving responsiveness with smaller turbines for less inertia and then make up for the loss in power from that change by allowing higher revs.

But maybe the low end responsiveness is available to unlock already by simple ECU tuning.

[robopp]

Originally Posted by solstice

I think there are more than one trick here, one of the most obvious being improving responsiveness with smaller turbines for less inertia and then make up for the loss in power from that with higher revs.

But maybe it's there to unlock already by simple ECU tuning.

Would be very interesting if they changed the turbos. Excited to see what they do though!

[bm323]

It appears Lemetier is a very senior engineer based in BMW, Germany (but not a driver)

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by bm323

It appears Lemetier is a very senior engineer based in BMW, Germany (but not a driver)

I don't know whether to be humbled or insulted

[solstice]

Originally Posted by lemetier

I don't know whether to be humbled or insulted

(Quite chuckle) I vote for amused.

[pbar]

Originally Posted by solstice

I think there are more than one trick here, one of the most obvious being improving responsiveness with smaller turbines for less inertia and then make up for the loss in power from that change by allowing higher revs.

But maybe the low end responsiveness is available to unlock already by simple ECU tuning.

I'm also hoping they are also doing something very different with the transmission tuning. I found the X3M very hard to drive in 'manual mode' and it was partly due to 8 closely spaced ratios and the lagginess if you didn't keep the revs in the sweet spot. Perhaps if they rejigged the engine's power delivery characteristics they have some matching tricks to make the ZF8 more track-friendly?

<silently praying for a wink from lemetier >

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by solstice

I think there are more than one trick here, one of the most obvious being improving responsiveness with smaller turbines for less inertia and then make up for the loss in power from that change by allowing higher revs.

But maybe the low end responsiveness is available to unlock already by simple ECU tuning.

I doubt they'd fit smaller turbo for the M3, if the peak power staying unchanged is any indication. Granted the S58 in current tuning state has a ton of power potential, unlikely BMW will do something like downsizing the turbo which is normally deemed as degrade for the M3.

If anything, they can do some form of the anti lag system like they said they did with the S55.

From my experience of tuning FI BMWs for years and current state of S58 tuning, ECU alone will not help lag much if any.

As far as speculation goes, BMW people said in a couple occasions that the exact S58 found from X3/4M will be fitted to the G8X.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by pbar

I can see where this is going... next you'll need 'shift-by-wire' so that the car can decide whether to accept your gear selection.

...and then you've basically got a DCT gearbox with an H-pattern selector rather than 2 paddles.

But seriously, as a driver who learned on a manual, I would actually prefer to have 'clutch-by-wire' and a 3rd pedal on DCT for reversing maneuvers and hill-starts.

Could the past be the answer for the future?

[brad850csi]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Could the past be the answer for the future?

B12 Switchtronic, interesting comparison