[themnmd]

Wow lots of strong opinions. It come down to preference. The handling of AWD vs rwd is different. I personally like rwd always have. However, I have no serious complaints about the m5 or m550's out there and how they handle. From reviews of same too. My next BMW will likely be AWD

[upsidedownfunnel]

I prefer RWD but sometimes it's just fun to lay into the gas in a powerful AWD car. I bet the xDrive can do 60 in under 4 seconds. Having that kind of acceleration in a "normal" 3 series that can comfortably be daily driven is pretty cool. Even if it needs AWD to do it.

[Burnsy79]

Our 'family' car is an Audi S3 Sportback with quattro and my company car is my F30 330e (RWD).

I live in Scotland where it, pretty much, rains constantly and I snowboard the mountains in the winter. I have to take the S3 whenever it snows as you don't have to change to winter tyres just to drive on the white stuff. On the greasy roads here the 330e is constantly slipping and especially when pulling out junctions (assume this is because the instant torque from the electric drivetrain).

I know this doesn't mean much to your situation, but I'd have xDrive if I could. Even in dry conditions my S3 will eat any similar powered rear driver on a country road or in a straight line from standing start.

[wknddrivr]

Originally Posted by Transfer

The point is you can't fully enjoy the pure RWD dynamics if you can't slide sideways so if you've got a weather reason to go AWD, no harm done. The new xDrive dynamics feel RWD for day to day driving so not much downside.

You don’t need to fishtail to appreciate RWD. AWDs extra weight is noticeable 100% of the time. It also costs $2000 more than RWD, increases your turning radius which is undesirable in cities, requires more maintenance, reduces fuel mileage, necessitated replacing all tires when one is punctured or having the replacement tire shaved to the same tread depth as the existing tires, and has the potential to break (the old x3 and some other BMWs including my e90 had bad transfer cases requiring a $4500 replacement which usually happened after the warranty ran out)

I’m not against AWD if someone truly needs it, but if you’re not driving on steep snow covered roads or going off road, it’s not needed and only has drawbacks. It also gives people the impression that they don’t need winter tires because they have AWD...AWD does nothing to improve braking and handling on snow/ice, it just lets you accelerate faster and give you a false sense of security even though you have no additional stopping power. AWD is a compliment to winter tires not a substitute but many people treat it as a substitute and this is dangerous

[golferboy2312]

[QUOTE=ssquared;24853594]You don’t need to fishtail to appreciate RWD. AWDs extra weight is noticeable 100% of the time. It also costs $2000 more than RWD, increases your turning radius which is undesirable in cities, requires more maintenance, reduces fuel mileage, necessitated replacing all tires when one is punctured or having the replacement tire shaved to the same tread depth as the existing tires, and has the potential to break (the old x3 and some other BMWs including my e90 had bad transfer cases requiring a $4500 replacement which usually happened after the warranty ran out)

Do you mind elaborating a little more? If I have AWD and I get a flat tire that needs replacing, I have to replace them all?? Also, you say it requires more maintenance, what exactly is that maintenance I have to do? Thanks

[joepimentel]

Originally Posted by golferboy2312

Do you mind elaborating a little more? If I have AWD and I get a flat tire that needs replacing, I have to replace them all?? Also, you say it requires more maintenance, what exactly is that maintenance I have to do? Thanks

I've had two BMWs with AWD, and when I had to replace a tire I simply had to replace the affected tire not all 4 (and I had them replaced at my local BMW dealership, not some place that will break rules / suggestions). I've never had to do any special maintenance either because of AWD. It definitely handles a bit differently than RWD but that's not a bad thing, and I appreciate the extra punch it seems to have when I floor the gas. I live in the Northeast so for winter and snow it's generally better to have than RWD (mainly for handling, won't help for braking).

[rccoleman]

It's a matter of difference in tire wear between the wheels. There's a manufacturer-defined maximum tread differential between the wheels to ensure that the drivetrain can accurately detect slippage. It's described well here: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret....jsp?techid=18

[Pauleebe]

Originally Posted by rccoleman

It's a matter of difference in tire wear between the wheels. There's a manufacturer-defined maximum tread differential between the wheels to ensure that the drivetrain can accurately detect slippage. It's described well here: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret....jsp?techid=18

I'd venture to say that if 1 new tire would throw the AWD system into disarray (because the other 3 tires are that more worn down compared to the 1 new tire), that it was basically time to replace all 4 any way.

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by ssquared

You don’t need to fishtail to appreciate RWD. AWDs extra weight is noticeable 100% of the time. It also costs $2000 more than RWD, increases your turning radius which is undesirable in cities, requires more maintenance, reduces fuel mileage, necessitated replacing all tires when one is punctured or having the replacement tire shaved to the same tread depth as the existing tires, and has the potential to break (the old x3 and some other BMWs including my e90 had bad transfer cases requiring a $4500 replacement which usually happened after the warranty ran out)

I’m not against AWD if someone truly needs it, but if you’re not driving on steep snow covered roads or going off road, it’s not needed and only has drawbacks. It also gives people the impression that they don’t need winter tires because they have AWD...AWD does nothing to improve braking and handling on snow/ice, it just lets you accelerate faster and give you a false sense of security even though you have no additional stopping power. AWD is a compliment to winter tires not a substitute but many people treat it as a substitute and this is dangerous

Come on already don't make AWD sound like some demon that inflicts pain on all owners. According to your profile you're in LA too so, yeaaah. Have you driven an M-performance xDrive car? They handle like RWD, seriously. The only negative difference is very slight steering corruption. Otherwise you can get off the line quicker in all conditions (including just plain old wet roads), winter traction is improved when you face snow (I agree still need winter tires) and you can drive faster without too much oversteer. Although you can also spin out if you want to go that far. Yes, these cars can oversteer you backward into solid objects almost as easily as RWD.

I don't see how the extra weight is noticeable. The car weighs 3850 already and only 120 lbs more in xDrive. More maintenance? Not really although I guess more to break in the long run. Sounds like you had a bad experience with old xDrive and I can't say newer xDrive is any different but any part can break and doesn't mean expect it. Improved MPG in RWD is negligible really. The tire issue depends on tread depths but while tire resellers love to sell you 4 new tires, as long as fronts are approximately equal to each other and rears approximately equal, there is not a problem. You just can't have brand new and well worn side by side so big deal get 1-3 additional new tires in that rare circumstance that a tire is trashed.

If you drive where it is sunny and dry 90% of the year then you're a fool to get xDrive for the cost alone unless you love to stoplight race. For most everyone else, xDrive is a viable option that may fit that person's life and driving style. So please don't act like it's some terrible thing and without merit.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by Transfer

If you drive where it is sunny and dry 90% of the year then you're a fool to get xDrive for the cost alone unless you love to stoplight race. For most everyone else, xDrive is a viable option that may fit that person's life and driving style. So please don't act like it's some terrible thing and without merit.

I'll give you the opposite perspective...

If you drive where it is snowy and wet 90% of the year then you're a fool to get RWD. For most everyone else, RWD is a viable option that may fit that person's life and driving style. So please don't act like it's some terrible thing and without merit.

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by alex2364

I'll give you the opposite perspective...

If you drive where it is snowy and wet 90% of the year then you're a fool to get RWD. For most everyone else, RWD is a viable option that may fit that person's life and driving style. So please don't act like it's some terrible thing and without merit.

Did I say anything negative about RWD? Don't think so...

[BimmerBoomer]

I had the best of RWD with my succession on M3s (E36, E46 and E92): naturally aspirated straight sixes or V8s you could steer with the throttle. But those days are gone and I prefer AWD with the current high torque turbocharged engines. Having said that a RWD car with LSD will get you through the Canadian winter if you know how to drive it. Anyway, I'll be sticking with my Audi S5 Sportback at least until the M440i Gran Coupe is available.

[wknddrivr]

Originally Posted by Transfer

Come on already don't make AWD sound like some demon that inflicts pain on all owners. According to your profile you're in LA too so, yeaaah. Have you driven an M-performance xDrive car? They handle like RWD, seriously. The only negative difference is very slight steering corruption. Otherwise you can get off the line quicker in all conditions (including just plain old wet roads), winter traction is improved when you face snow (I agree still need winter tires) and you can drive faster without too much oversteer. Although you can also spin out if you want to go that far. Yes, these cars can oversteer you backward into solid objects almost as easily as RWD.

I don't see how the extra weight is noticeable. The car weighs 3850 already and only 120 lbs more in xDrive. More maintenance? Not really although I guess more to break in the long run. Sounds like you had a bad experience with old xDrive and I can't say newer xDrive is any different but any part can break and doesn't mean expect it. Improved MPG in RWD is negligible really. The tire issue depends on tread depths but while tire resellers love to sell you 4 new tires, as long as fronts are approximately equal to each other and rears approximately equal, there is not a problem. You just can't have brand new and well worn side by side so big deal get 1-3 additional new tires in that rare circumstance that a tire is trashed.

If you drive where it is sunny and dry 90% of the year then you're a fool to get xDrive for the cost alone unless you love to stoplight race. For most everyone else, xDrive is a viable option that may fit that person's life and driving style. So please don't act like it's some terrible thing and without merit.

I’ve only lived in LA a few years but most of my life had been in snowy areas and I’m an avid skier so I drive through mountain passes in snow all the time. I haven’t had a bad experience with x-drive, I just didn’t find it to provide that much added benefit over RWD with winter tires and a limited slip differential. I haven’t driven an m-performance car with x drive as I see no point in them. I’m either going with a commuter car setup (base engine, 704msport suspension) or an m car. I’m not a fan of the in m performance models, especially now since I can’t get a 6MT with the m340. Full M is just as comfortable as a daily if not more because of the better seats and they hold value better if you care about that so the price difference isn’t much between an m performance and full m car.

The extra weight is noticeable and it makes the front of the car feel heavier. When I got my 530 I tested the RWD and x drive and could feel the difference If I didn’t drive the two back to back, I probably wouldn’t have picked up on the extra weight. It’s less noticeable in the newer cars due to electric power steering but I can still feel the additional heft. In the older cars with hydraulic steering it reduced the steering feel/feedback a bit but now that BMWs have no steering feedback that’s not really an issue.

The extra maintenance is due to the transfer case and the front differential. BMW claims the fluids are “lifetime fluids”. Well, yeah the fluids last until the diff or the transfer case fails because of improper lubrication. If you want to keep them running in good condition you need to change the diff and transfer case fluids every 60k miles or so. Changing the transfer case fluid is a pain in the ass because it’s not a simple drain and refill. You need to reset the calibration of the clutch packs using the service computer. If you don’t, the clutch packs will not be adjusted for the new fluid and fail. There are a bunch of threads on the x3 and e90 forums on this issue. Clearly improvements have been made to the system to make it more performance focused, but the hardware still requires the fluid changes for longetivity. With RWD, there is no transfer case or front differential to worry about.

The tire issue is described in the owners manual and affects every awd car not just BMW. The manual specifies the maximum differential between the tread depth of the tires. If you exceed that specification, the transfer case is subjected to additional stress and fails prematurely.

Like I said in my original post, I’m not against AWD...there are good reasons to have it. Most people don’t have good reasons and don’t understand how to make the most out of it or about its drawbacks. If you know the positives and negatives and the positives outweigh the negatives then go for it, it helps and it’s not a demon. It’s about using the right tool for the right job and AWD is overkill for most people

Even going on ski trips and driving on snow covered unplowed roads, RWD with a limited slip and winter tires has been nearly as good as my x drive 328. The ground clearance on BMWs has proven to be far bigger hinderance than
RWD vs AWD

[BimmerBoomer]

Originally Posted by ssquared

The ground clearance on BMWs has proven to be far bigger hinderance than
RWD vs AWD

I like to photograph snowy owls, which sends me down more secondary roads in winter than skiing ever did. The M cars with DCTs have a particular vulnerability because the flimsy plastic pan under the tranny is the lowest point on the (already low) car. I didn't have a clue about this until a chunk of ice ripped the pan under my E92 M3 spilling transmission fluid all over the road and effectively killing the car as the DCT continued to throw codes after it was put back together.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by alex2364

If you need AWD to avoid crashing into pedestrians, cyclists, and other motorists then you need to go back to driving school and learn how to drive properly. AWD isn't going to defy the laws of physics.

No, but awd does, in fact, make it more likely one will continue to travel in a straight line when there is snow or ice on the road. It also helps prevent you from getting stuck in snow, or other conditions that can mire down a rwd car.

Also, sliding around, doing donuts, and other fun activities afforded by rwd, kind of lost their novelty by the time I was 17. I have no need to use my daily driver to execute power slides on heavily congested public roads. I need it to get me to where I'm going with minimal drama, even when the weather, and conditions deteriorate. I've made do with rwd and fwd for most of my life, and they will get the job done with good winter tires, but awd with winter tires is simply the best tool for the job, and allows me to get the job done with less drama.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by ssquared

I've only lived in LA a few years but most of my life had been in snowy areas and I'm an avid skier so I drive through mountain passes in snow all the time. I haven't had a bad experience with x-drive, I just didn't find it to provide that much added benefit over RWD with winter tires and a limited slip differential. I haven't driven an m-performance car with x drive as I see no point in them. I'm either going with a commuter car setup (base engine, 704msport suspension) or an m car. I'm not a fan of the in m performance models, especially now since I can't get a 6MT with the m340. Full M is just as comfortable as a daily if not more because of the better seats and they hold value better if you care about that so the price difference isn't much between an m performance and full m car.

The extra weight is noticeable and it makes the front of the car feel heavier. When I got my 530 I tested the RWD and x drive and could feel the difference If I didn't drive the two back to back, I probably wouldn't have picked up on the extra weight. It's less noticeable in the newer cars due to electric power steering but I can still feel the additional heft. In the older cars with hydraulic steering it reduced the steering feel/feedback a bit but now that BMWs have no steering feedback that's not really an issue.

The extra maintenance is due to the transfer case and the front differential. BMW claims the fluids are "lifetime fluids". Well, yeah the fluids last until the diff or the transfer case fails because of improper lubrication. If you want to keep them running in good condition you need to change the diff and transfer case fluids every 60k miles or so. Changing the transfer case fluid is a pain in the ass because it's not a simple drain and refill. You need to reset the calibration of the clutch packs using the service computer. If you don't, the clutch packs will not be adjusted for the new fluid and fail. There are a bunch of threads on the x3 and e90 forums on this issue. Clearly improvements have been made to the system to make it more performance focused, but the hardware still requires the fluid changes for longetivity. With RWD, there is no transfer case or front differential to worry about.

The tire issue is described in the owners manual and affects every awd car not just BMW. The manual specifies the maximum differential between the tread depth of the tires. If you exceed that specification, the transfer case is subjected to additional stress and fails prematurely.

Like I said in my original post, I'm not against AWD...there are good reasons to have it. Most people don't have good reasons and don't understand how to make the most out of it or about its drawbacks. If you know the positives and negatives and the positives outweigh the negatives then go for it, it helps and it's not a demon. It's about using the right tool for the right job and AWD is overkill for most people

Even going on ski trips and driving on snow covered unplowed roads, RWD with a limited slip and winter tires has been nearly as good as my x drive 328. The ground clearance on BMWs has proven to be far bigger hinderance than
RWD vs AWD

In regard to awd being overkill, this might be in some cases, but it gives people peace of mind that they won't get stuck in a snow drift some where. Nobody NEEDS a car with 300+ hp either, yet we all like having the power on tap.

Like I've said in other posts, I just began driving awd several years ago. Prior, I've driven rwd and a couple of fwd vehicles in every season, and in most good, poor, and treacherous road conditions one is likely to encounter in the US lower 48. I know that I can make do with a rwd daily driver during any condition, within reason, but it so happens that awd allows me to accomplish the same with less drama. That's a real benefit in my mind.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by Fuller

No, but awd does, in fact, make it more likely one will continue to travel in a straight line when there is snow or ice on the road. It also helps prevent you from getting stuck in snow, or other conditions that can mire down a rwd car.

Also, sliding my ass end around, and other fun activities afforded by rwd, kind of lost their novelty by the time I was 16 or 17. I have no need to use my daily driver to execute power slides on heavily congested public roads. I need it to get me to where I'm going with minimal drama, even when the weather, and conditions deteriorate. I've made do with rwd and fwd for most of my life, and they will get the job done with good winter tires, but awd with winter tires is simply the best tool for the job, and allows me to get the job done with less drama.

Like I said in my previous post, AWD doesn't defy the laws of physics. It won't help you turn or brake. Only thing it does is help you accelerate. If you're accelerating so fast that you need AWD to help you drive straight in winter conditions then you're driving too fast for conditions.

Yes, it's true that AWD is the best tool for winter conditions. But where I live, I drive in 95% non-winter conditions. I would rather have the "best tool" for 95% of my driving rather than 5% of my driving.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by alex2364

Like I said in my previous post, AWD doesn't defy the laws of physics. It won't help you turn or brake. Only thing it does is help you accelerate. If you're accelerating so fast that you need AWD to help you drive straight in winter conditions then you're driving too fast for conditions.

Yes, it's true that AWD is the best tool for winter conditions. But where I live, I drive in 95% non-winter conditions. I would rather have the "best tool" for 95% of my driving rather than 5% of my driving.

If you live in an area with good road conditions 95% of the time, then I fully agree with you. There's no point getting awd. I wouldn't either.

In New England, for example, the winter can be mild with only a couple of snow events, or it can be severe, with blizzards that drop 3+ feet of snow, and accumulating snow can occur from November through mid April. Many roads in the northeastern US also tend to be hilly, meandering little paths, not nice wide roads organized into grids. Add to it that the snow can often have the consistency of freshly mixed concrete, and awd makes some sense.

That said, places like Boston, Chicago, or even Minneapolis, aren't the Canadien NWT territories. One can get by with rwd and good snow tires. It's just that awd offers some peace of mind, and allows you to get by with less drama if you find yourself trying to drive home in a snow squall.

It should go without saying that the best tool for poor driving conditions is driving carefully. Nothing annoys me more than when people think that they can accomplish anything because they have awd. While it will help you stay on the road with careful driving, it won't help you brake any sooner, and it won't keep you and fellow motorists out of harm's way if you drive recklessly.

[Transfer]

All I know is that I don't like losing traction at any point in time unless I'm trying to be a hooligan which is quite rare. I have the best summer street tires (PS4S) and arguably best performance winter tires (PA4) on my E92M and if the roads are wet, snowy, or icy, traction still becomes an issue despite the tires. That just so happens to be 50%+ days of the year here.

This last winter I drove in snow up and down hills as well as interstate and it was miserable and massively stressful. I made it to my destinations but just barely. My poor wife got stuck in our neighborhood, although that's probably on her, and thankfully good samaritans helped push her. In the wet things aren't nearly as bad but the difference between RWD with proper tires and AWD with proper tires is still enormous. When the roads are dry it's an entirely different ballgame but I'm just done with the RWD thing year round.

If RWD is your gig then good for you but I will only own RWD again if it's a weekend/fun car.

[wknddrivr]

Originally Posted by BimmerBoomer

I like to photograph snowy owls, which sends me down more secondary roads in winter than skiing ever did. The M cars with DCTs have a particular vulnerability because the flimsy plastic pan under the tranny is the lowest point on the (already low) car. I didn't have a clue about this until a chunk of ice ripped the pan under my E92 M3 spilling transmission fluid all over the road and effectively killing the car as the DCT continued to throw codes after it was put back together.

Sorry to hear that, seems to be an ongoing issue with m cars. The S55 has an oil cooler facing down towards the road and right in front of the front wheels. It has a tendency to puncture from random debris on the road. If that happens, there’s really not enough time to pull aside safely before doing serious damage to the engine

[paulbazo]

I have an M550Xi XDrive, not available as RWD so I had no choice.
Is the first sport sedan I have with AWD, the car is rear wheel drive biased, you do not feel the front wheel drive, acceleration is better than RWD.
I like it a lot.

I do not "need" AWD I never see snow but it rains a lot here. I believe the new engines benefit from AWD, so if I get an M340 it will be AWD.

[bimmer456]

Originally Posted by paulbazo

I have an M550Xi XDrive, not available as RWD so I had no choice.
Is the first sport sedan I have with AWD, the car is rear wheel drive biased, you do not feel the front wheel drive, acceleration is better than RWD.
I like it a lot.

I do not "need" AWD I never see snow but it rains a lot here. I believe the new engines benefit from AWD, so if I get an M340 it will be AWD.

The M550 Just got a horsepower bump to around 500 horsepower. They should call it M550 competition.