[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I don't think a battery can maintain minimum charge without some type of power source, so the reality should be that the car tries its best to use cruising(when enabled) and regenerative brake to recapture energy.

So the car does turn into a sluggish 320i with extra 400+lb when battery does not have enough juice, but the driver can adapt to hide that sluggishness by not demanding power during that window of recharging.

It is similar to BEV drivers needing to plug in at low-rate hours, and hide on-the-road (slow) charge time with breaks/stayovers, and limp to next charge port during road trips.

I do wonder what is effective mpg when a 330e driver starts a road trip of, say, 1000 miles, with 100% empty battery.

Or what is hybrid range with a full (10.6 gallons?) tank and 100% empty battery.

Sure the battery can maintain a minimum charge. There’s a computer controlling it.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Sure the battery can maintain a minimum charge. There’s a computer controlling it.

Is minimum charge for one last burst of eboost? If so, what is charge level after that last burst?

E.g. 12kWh capacity, and minimum is set at 1kWh, and each eboost consumes 1kWh.

So when driver applies eboost of 1kWh while battery is at minimum level(of 1kWh), is eboost not available until another 1kWh is redeposited back to the battery?

I don't know the exact numbers, I am just curious how it works. In my mind there needs to be certain "downtime" in which 180HP@4000lb applies.

Or minimum is set relatively high, say, 5kWh, such that ICE is restarted early to recharge(similar to i3 REX?)

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Is minimum charge for one last burst of eboost? If so, what is charge level after that last burst?

E.g. 12kWh capacity, and minimum is set at 1kWh, and each eboost consumes 1kWh.

So when driver applies eboost of 1kWh while battery is at minimum level(of 1kWh), is eboost not available until another 1kWh is redeposited back to the battery?

I don't know the exact numbers, I am just curious how it works. In my mind there needs to be certain "downtime" in which 180HP@4000lb applies.

Or minimum is set relatively high, say, 5kWh, such that ICE is restarted early to recharge(similar to i3 REX?)

There is a downtime. It has been discussed earlier in this thread. To start with, BMW only uses about 80% of its battery capacity as "full". It saves the remaining 20% to help save the life of the battery pack AND it provides boost even when the readout on the electric battery is "---" {which for those of you without a BMW PHEV that is less than "0").

Not only have I had boost when the reading was "---" but I have also tried babying my car in electric mode when it is at "---" and I have entered my residential street and drive very slowly the half mile to my house. I have been able to stay electric. I only did that to test the system as I normally drive like I hate the car.

But...yes...repeated use of boost will eventually end up with none available. Certainly that would likely be the result on a track. BMW is not transparent on this type of issue so there is no way of knowing how many uses of boost at "---" will truly exhaust the boost.

[fereke]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I don't think a battery can maintain minimum charge without some type of power source, so the reality should be that the car tries its best to use cruising(when enabled) and regenerative brake to recapture energy.

I agree, a battery cannot maintain minimum charge without some type of power source.
However, you have such a power source: the petrol engine, either directly (like in battery control mode) or indirectly (regenerative braking).

Originally Posted by bavarianride

So the car does turn into a sluggish 320i with extra 400+lb when battery does not have enough juice, but the driver can adapt to hide that sluggishness by not demanding power during that window of recharging.

Believe it or not, but I've never been out of juice and not having the power I wanted.

I'm not arguing that you could not drain the battery fully, but that in practice, that would be very difficult to reach that point.

Let's do some back of the envelope calculations. There are 12 kWh of battery in a 330e. About 10 are available for pure EV drive.
We then reach the "hidden" part, say 2kWh which is shown as "no battery range" and ICE kicks in, it is not possible to drive full EV any longer but you still have eBoost. Let's start here.

Starting from a full stop, full throttle with xtraboost to join the highway and hit the left lane at 100 mph. The 330e does it in about 15s. With xtraboost, 110hp or 80kW come from the electric engine.
This acceleration used 80kW * 15s = 1200 kWs = 0.33kWh out of the battery (xtraboost would actually stop after 10s but let's skip that, it would reduce consumption).
The car is now cruising at 100 mph. The car needs about 80hp or 60kW to maintain that speed (ballpark figure). The petrol engine still has 110hp / 80kW available.
Maybe not the actual figure, but imagine a quarter of that is used to charge the battery. In a minute, you're back to your starting point, 2kWh available in the battery.
Charging the battery from the ICE is not energy efficient but this is what the battery control mode does and it can also be used to maintain that reserve.

Going from 0 to 140mph, that's probably 30s of full power acceleration (0.67kWh out of 2kWh) and then, the ICE alone would be able to sustain that speed, while maintaining what's left in the battery. That's the top speed of your sluggish 320i but you'd still have some battery left if you need to bump up your speed.

Above that speed and never lifting your right foot, indeed, you'd be depleting the battery, there are still physical limits
But with the human limits on public roads, it's not easy to reach the physical ones in terms of emptying the battery.

From the 0km EV range mark, you'd have about 1.5 minutes of continuous full throttle with xtraboost (or 2 minutes as xtraboost stops after 10s).
Even on unlimited speed highways, that's not something I think I have done without having to slow down at some point, be it because of other cars, turns, road works, understanding my driving skills are not unlimited or whatnot. Slowing down would charge the battery.

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I do wonder what is effective mpg when a 330e driver starts a road trip of, say, 1000 miles, with 100% empty battery.

Last Summer, I had a trip to Italy, over 3300km, 2 people and 2 weeks worth of luggage (well, within the limits of the trunk ). The drive included autobahn, playful mountain roads, traffic jams, very warm conditions so intensive use of AC.
I started with a full battery from home and never plugged the car en route. I averaged 6.2 l/100 (38mpg).
2 months earlier, we had a similar trip to South of France with my wife's A4 (1.4 TFSI, 150hp) and we burnt 6.5 l/100 across 2200km, so even out of its comfort zone, the 330e performs well from a mpg POV.

On a long highway sectors, I would usually regain 5-8km of EV range. Not much more as the car tends to use electric power available to improve the mpg.
On long downhill rides, then it can get almost to full if gliding down.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

There is a downtime. It has been discussed earlier in this thread. To start with, BMW only uses about 80% of its battery capacity as "full". It saves the remaining 20% to help save the life of the battery pack AND it provides boost even when the readout on the electric battery is "---" {which for those of you without a BMW PHEV that is less than "0").

Not only have I had boost when the reading was "---" but I have also tried babying my car in electric mode when it is at "---" and I have entered my residential street and drive very slowly the half mile to my house. I have been able to stay electric. I only did that to test the system as I normally drive like I hate the car.

But...yes...repeated use of boost will eventually end up with none available. Certainly that would likely be the result on a track. BMW is not transparent on this type of issue so there is no way of knowing how many uses of boost at "---" will truly exhaust the boost.

Ah so 20% is the threshold, that is 20% of 12kWh or 2.4kWh.

Online spec sheet says G20 330e electric motor is 83kW, and each eboost is 10 seconds per BMW.

Using fereke's math, each eboost burns 0.231kWh, so that 2.4kWh reserve should provide 10 extra bursts of 10 seconds each.

I need to get a 330e loaner to test out these numbers.

[bavarianride]

Your math looks good.

So at 20% set as threshold to kick in ICE, there are 10 bursts of eboosts(each 10s) available, while each eboost burns 0.231kWh(830kWs).

Online spec says G20 330e gasoline engine is max 181HP or 135kW@5000rpm.

My guess is cruising@65-80mph 2000rpm, the gasoline engine produces 54kW.

Let's say the ECU bumps up 10% rpm to generate extra 5kW to charge battery, so it takes 830/5=166 seconds(round up to 3 minutes) to replenish each eboost. That is pretty good.

I think the 10% mpg cost aligns to 38mpg for 330e vs. 42 mpg for 330i.

Originally Posted by fereke

On a long highway sectors, I would usually regain 5-8km of EV range. Not much more as the car tends to use electric power available to improve the mpg.
On long downhill rides, then it can get almost to full if gliding down.

[bavarianride]

My thinking is that 20% is when ICE kicks in, and 10%(just a guess) is when eboost is turned off to maintain battery health, so let's say 5 eboost after ICE kicks in.

I also read that G20 330e EV battery has cooling capability, does anyone know how much kWh the battery cooling consumes?

[bmw34me]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I don't think a battery can maintain minimum charge without some type of power source, so the reality should be that the car tries its best to use cruising(when enabled) and regenerative brake to recapture energy.

So the car does turn into a sluggish 320i with extra 400+lb when battery does not have enough juice, but the driver can adapt to hide that sluggishness by not demanding power during that window of recharging.

It is similar to BEV drivers needing to plug in at low-rate hours, and hide on-the-road (slow) charge time with breaks/stayovers, and limp to next charge port during road trips.

I do wonder what is effective mpg when a 330e driver starts a road trip of, say, 1000 miles, with 100% empty battery.

Or what is hybrid range with a full (10.6 gallons?) tank and 100% empty battery.

This is entirely incorrect. There is a generator built into the car that keeps the battery charged. You can even charge it to 80% quite quickly while driving. The only time it won't be able to do that is if you literally drive full throttle nonstop.
So you can't say, there are x eboosts left once it reads "---" because the ICE is constantly charging the battery to the reserve capacity (or more if in battery control).


Why is this such a discussion with tons of baseless assumptions. BMW is very clear about this.

Q: What happens when my battery runs out? Will I still have full horsepower?
A: Yes, the system always maintains a reserve amount of power to provide full throttle eBoost and deliver max horsepower. Only under extreme driving conditions will this reserve be depleted example: constant full throttle driving like on a racetrack.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by bmw34me

Why is this such a discussion with tons of baseless assumptions. BMW is very clear about this.

Q: What happens when my battery runs out? Will I still have full horsepower?
A: Yes, the system always maintains a reserve amount of power to provide full throttle eBoost and deliver max horsepower. Only under extreme driving conditions will this reserve be depleted example: constant full throttle driving like on a racetrack.

I guess the point of this discussion is to demystify BMW's unclear statement.

E.g. The question of "What happens when my battery runs out? Will I still have full horsepower?" is asking what happens when battery is depleted(similar to what OP's Q post#1)

But BMW's answer is that "runs out" does not mean empty, as full throttle eBoost is still available.

Some of the math in previous posts is to get some ballpark/back-of-envelope estimate, e.g. 5, or 10 eBoost.

And if one truly believes ".... to provide full throttle eBoost and deliver max horsepower." after battery "runs out" as stated by BMW, then the math will not matter.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by fereke

From the 0km EV range mark, you'd have about 1.5 minutes of continuous full throttle with xtraboost (or 2 minutes as xtraboost stops after 10s).

So that would be an interesting driving experience, having full throttle with eboost cutting off every 10 seconds, then resume in 2 seconds, for 10 bursts?

So 180HP@4000lb will be felt during "downtime" intermittently, then once battery goes to 0kWh, then "downtime" will be extended until another eboost is recharged.

[bavarianride]

I guess 330e owners can drain reserve with spirited uphill driving like this guy.

Or 330e going on non-extreme long uphill climb, e.g. 90-100 miles of ascent to Lake Tahoe@7000 ft, can also drain the reserve.

The guy also did another spirited run with X5 45e on same uphill. He did say at the end to wait for battery to charge back up for another run.

[kennyzm]

Interesting to read this tread. I myself own and drive a G31 530e and have never found my self out of e-power. But then I drive like most of us, meaning you almost never have to use full power. I find it to be "alien risk" to run out of e-power with every day use.

But I guess you can provoke the car to go out of e-power.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by kennyzm

But I guess you can provoke the car to go out of e-power.

Some of my destinations do have long climbs(90-100 miles) with 7000-8000ft gains, for sure BEV with 250-300 miles of range can be a bit tight, while PHEV like 330e should work but the eboost likely will be exhausted during the ascent.

[vinuneuro]

Thanks for the wealth of 330e owner feedback. It has been very helpful beyond what I've been able to experience myself on the test drives.

[bavarianride]

This is an interesting article, one thing that stands out is the author says G20 330e EV only 0-60 is 14 seconds. Is that a typo?

If true, then EV mode only uses ZF's 111HP electric motor to pull 4000lb then. Do 330e owners switch from EV mode back to hybrid mode before entering freeway on-ramp?

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...sedan-heritage

[bmw34me]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Some of my destinations do have long climbs(90-100 miles) with 7000-8000ft gains, for sure BEV with 250-300 miles of range can be a bit tight, while PHEV like 330e should work but the eboost likely will be exhausted during the ascent.

I don't think you understand that the ICE is constantly charging the battery once it shows "---". So unless you're going uphill full throttle nonstop there will be eboost available untill you run out of gas.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by bmw34me

I don't think you understand that the ICE is constantly charging the battery once it shows "---". So unless you're going uphill full throttle nonstop there will be eboost available untill you run out of gas.

Do note my comment in post#22 was:

".... the car tries its best to use cruising(when enabled) and regenerative brake to recapture energy", so I did say cruising(can u cruise without engine power?) is used to charge battery.

The hidden tech detail is really how much kW can be diverted from 184HP of gasoline engine to replenish eboost/electric power.

Do note eboost is just to bump electric motor from 68HP to 109HP, or extra 41HP.

E.g. going uphill at 4krpm for 90-100 miles up 7000-8000ft is half throttle nonstop.

If 181HP from gasoline engine, plus 68HP from electric motor, are needed to maintain the ascent, then even without triggering eboost, the 20% reserve will be drained if none of that 181HP is diverted to replenish the battery(while the electric motor is burning juice to maintain 68HP).

gavinwong had experience driving over Switzerland's mountainous terrain, and his comment in post#5 was below, I am not sure he is referring to ascent or not.

"If you don't have any e boost remaining, then it can be pretty sluggish (in lower speeds, seems to be better at kick down at around 90kmph)"

[bavarianride]

So the 13-14 seconds of G20 330e 0-60 on EV-only(with 109HP electric motor) is realistically local street driving, and cannot match Model 3's 258HP electric motor.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

So the 13-14 seconds of G20 330e 0-60 on EV-only(with 109HP electric motor) is realistically local street driving, and cannot match Model 3's 258HP electric motor.

Duh! If one is looking for a fast 0-60 time on a PHEV, one must be using both motors.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by SteveinArizona

Duh! If one is looking for a fast 0-60 time on a PHEV, one must be using both motors.

So a G20 330e electric mode 0-40 (typical local street speed limit) takes 6 seconds@3:14 of attached clip. Does that match 0-40 of Chevy Spark?

In comparison, a 330i hits 40mph in 2.8 seconds.

https://fastestlaps.com/models/bmw-330i-g20

[Tudor]

Need help,my 330e was at charge ,I took off to go and ,no power at all ,nothing turns on ,nothing works,like all electricity gone ,nothing works,anyone have same problem?

[toolerb50]

Originally Posted by Tudor

Need help,my 330e was at charge ,I took off to go and ,no power at all ,nothing turns on ,nothing works,like all electricity gone ,nothing works,anyone have same problem?

I would check the 12v battery