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      11-08-2018, 03:18 PM   #89
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Meh - I like the sound and feel of an ICE. Fast golf carts are not for everyone. I know one day we'll all be driving electric cars (well autonomously at least) so I'll enjoy good old gas burning cars while I can. I'm in no rush to get rid of driving.
Any 1970's muscle car has more character, more rumble, and an overall general more "old school petrolhead" experience than whatever computer you are driving today.

Progress is a one way-street....sometimes it takes a step back, but to claim that the rush from driving comes from the fuel source means you are ignoring history. If you want a rush, go buy a '70 Chevelle 496.

If you want to get to work in peace and quiet, and smoke a few fools along the way, go get yourself a P100.
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      11-08-2018, 03:22 PM   #90
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You saw a drag racing video and now ICE is dying? You should be a stand-up comedian but work on more one-liners please.
Mate, it's emblematic of a bigger phenomenon. Namely that the technology that makes rich guys cars go fast eventually trickles down to the lowly flat-dwelling hordes. Today, it's the Model S P100D.... tomorrow, it'll be an electric F-150.

Maybe not tomorrow, but in the next decade or so... the writing is on the 1/4 mile track.
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      11-08-2018, 04:49 PM   #91
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A video for tesla doing a lap in nurburgring in 2014.https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-te...rin-1600644908
Yep, they are absolutely incapable of going around a track, quoting from your link:

The lap itself was around 10 minutes Bridge to Gantry (in heavy traffic) but unfortunately the car went into a reduced power mode about 3 minutes in due to excess battery heat


Or what about this one?



Cuts so much power after about one minute around the track. Crosses the start line at 133mph, comes back 3 minutes later at 114mph. It is slower around that track than a Civic Si by 3 seconds!

Yes they can go fast in a straight line but they aren't a performance car.
Battery technology needs to further develop before electric cars are a viable option for the majority of the population. Current battery technology holds them back a lot.
I don't think the majority of the population tracks their cars so I think your a bit off the mark with that comment.
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      11-08-2018, 04:54 PM   #92
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Well I'm far from a millennial and I can tell you that a Model 3 performance would eat your M4 for lunch.

I have to admit...I'm a tech guy own apple everything and I work on F-18 Avionics systems for a living, don't get me wrong, I love BMW I have owned 5 and would love to own an M car, but I wish BMW would get off its a$$ and build a proper electric car.
Why? What for?
Gas is cheap, it's cheaper in US than Europe. Who cares about the environment that much to drive a toaster oven. One 18 wheeler spits out more pollution in one month driving around the country than I ever will in my car for the rest of my life.
I swear California and Apple should be its own country
The problem his Tesla Model 3 Performance will soon overheat as soon as the car is done it's first fast off the line run and then go into limp mode. Electric cars are only good for straight line brief runs very batteries overheat.
While the model 3 performance is far from a "track car", it is more than capable of holding its own. https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa...-romeo-giulia/
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      11-08-2018, 04:57 PM   #93
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Oh boy, here we go again.

Where do I start? With the poor build quality, that hideous front end, that 'squat on the floor' rear seat, or the generic Corolla looks? Or that inert, no roar driving experience? What Tesla owners like OP need to realize is that we BMW enthusiasts buy Bimmers because of their soul - not to go from Point A to Point B fast.

Nothing against Model 3 buyers - let them be the guinea pigs while Musk learns mass production. And battery technology improves sufficiently when I can charge to a full charge in 5 minutes. Till then I will hear my TwinPower Turbo roar and the exhaust burble as I take the twisters where ever I can find them.
I don't get the "charge in less than 5 minutes argument. An electric car is like going out to your garage every morning to find a vehicle with a full gas tank. Most people don't drive over 300 miles every day before returning to their house. To me this isn't a valid argument. But then again it's all subjective. I agree the Model3 leaves a lot to be desired, but that is where I, as an avid car enthusiast with a history of buying BMW wish they would get with the inevitable.
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      11-08-2018, 05:54 PM   #94
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What many e-car proponents often forget is that the mileage is dependent on load. The max range is significantly impacted during less than perfect weather, stop and go traffic, accessories on etc. As a commuting appliance, I think e-cars are great. I am not against it in this regards. Heck my garage is already equipped with a high Amp 220V outlet. So I know I can get a Model S fully charged in a few hours let alone overnight.
I live near the US border and we Vancourites love doing cross border shopping. However I would pause to consider the necessary risks in using an e-car with the border waits, during winter, traffic and of course enjoy the normal accessory uses afforded by an ICE car.

Automotive performance has seen a significant democratization over the last few year. The performance gap has closed up. M3s and 911s are not a whole lot faster than modern top line Golfs and Civics. It's unheard of just years ago. So where does that leave the true car enthusiast? I don't think it's outright numbers thing. I believe it is in the way an automobile drives. The organic feel, sounds, reverberations, communication of car and driver that true enthusiasts value. Soul.

My wife and I are currently looking at replacing our washer/dryer. The technology in these puppies are amazing. And the power efficiency is incredible. Quiet too. Kinda reminds me of something...
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      11-08-2018, 07:27 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Just a 3 View Post
Oh boy, here we go again.

Where do I start? With the poor build quality, that hideous front end, that 'squat on the floor' rear seat, or the generic Corolla looks? Or that inert, no roar driving experience? What Tesla owners like OP need to realize is that we BMW enthusiasts buy Bimmers because of their soul - not to go from Point A to Point B fast.

Nothing against Model 3 buyers - let them be the guinea pigs while Musk learns mass production. And battery technology improves sufficiently when I can charge to a full charge in 5 minutes. Till then I will hear my TwinPower Turbo roar and the exhaust burble as I take the twisters where ever I can find them.
I don't get the "charge in less than 5 minutes argument. An electric car is like going out to your garage every morning to find a vehicle with a full gas tank. Most people don't drive over 300 miles every day before returning to their house. To me this isn't a valid argument. But then again it's all subjective. I agree the Model3 leaves a lot to be desired, but that is where I, as an avid car enthusiast with a history of buying BMW wish they would get with the inevitable.
Re the 5 minutes to refill argument, as you said, it is subjective. To me it is not about having to go 300+ miles everyday, but rather the choice to do that any day. I don't have the luxury to have two cars - one for commuting and the other for long trips (I get the supercharger network argument - but 1) that network is quite small currently and 2) It still takes quite a bit more time to recharge than refuel). On top of it are real world situations, like the previous poster mentioned - weather, traffic, accessories etc - all of which have an effect in range. As I said in my OP, I have nothing against EVs - but for me they don't work. And they don't for many.
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      11-09-2018, 03:47 AM   #96
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My wife and I are currently looking at replacing our washer/dryer. The technology in these puppies are amazing. And the power efficiency is incredible. Quiet too. Kinda reminds me of something...
I was going to buy a Tesla, but I'll probably get a Samsung instead, as they have 9 kg wash capability. Dries, too!

Interesting explanation as to why Tesla is so popular in NA. Everyone has a house, with a garage, probably heated, a power supply, and a bunch of other stuff like massive amounts of storage. Here's a street in a different place inhabited by Tesla's core market (wealthy, brand-conscious, potentially a bit eco) and a clue as to why Tesla isn't penetrating the market, for reasons that are not entirely its fault:

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      11-09-2018, 08:58 AM   #97
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That's true. What do you think is the closest bmw to keeping up with the model3?
Not sure, but it would be interesting also to understand which is the closest Tesla to BMW's ICE-powered models
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      11-09-2018, 10:02 AM   #98
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What many e-car proponents often forget is that the mileage is dependent on load. The max range is significantly impacted during less than perfect weather, stop and go traffic, accessories on etc. As a commuting appliance, I think e-cars are great. I am not against it in this regards. Heck my garage is already equipped with a high Amp 220V outlet. So I know I can get a Model S fully charged in a few hours let alone overnight.
I live near the US border and we Vancourites love doing cross border shopping. However I would pause to consider the necessary risks in using an e-car with the border waits, during winter, traffic and of course enjoy the normal accessory uses afforded by an ICE car.

Automotive performance has seen a significant democratization over the last few year. The performance gap has closed up. M3s and 911s are not a whole lot faster than modern top line Golfs and Civics. It's unheard of just years ago. So where does that leave the true car enthusiast? I don't think it's outright numbers thing. I believe it is in the way an automobile drives. The organic feel, sounds, reverberations, communication of car and driver that true enthusiasts value. Soul.

My wife and I are currently looking at replacing our washer/dryer. The technology in these puppies are amazing. And the power efficiency is incredible. Quiet too. Kinda reminds me of something...
Do you frequent Point Roberts, WA for your cross the boarding shopping trips?
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      11-09-2018, 02:45 PM   #99
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Interesting. 5 pages, and I didn't read anything from a Model 3, (not M3) owner. We took delivery of my wife's car in May, it is #20,xxx, and we have 6K+ miles on it. While it is primarily her car, I drive it regularly, and actually prefer it for running errands over my '16 340 with adaptable suspension, etc. etc.

I'm a major 'Car Guy' who has owned three BMWs which I have, and continue to love, but I don't bend my knee for any car brand. I don't 'track' my cars, but I do have 20 years of vintage racing behind me. (While the quality of the competition is not completely at a level 10, we do have plenty of very good, experienced drivers, and we really race - we just don't race to the level where we 'swap paint'. I have owned various sports cars over the years, and have a Porsche and a Ferrari in the garage for playing on the back roads. All of this is just so you have some idea of my experiences when I talk about the Model 3 and the 3 Series.

OK, so with all that BS, what is the car like? It has never been to the service center, (only a few blocks from where we live). We have two close friends who have the car; one had a cracked rear widow, and one has a tall son who has problems getting comfortable in it. No other complaints from them.

310 range is BS - Did you ever get EPA mileage on your car? Without super careful measuring, we get about 90% of what the stated range is. And, for battery longevity, the consensus is that you should charge to only 80% of max, so we charge to about 250/260 range. If you're planning a long trip, it is easy to charge to 100%. The car has a timer that we set to charge at 11:30PM. (The charger was about $6-700 installed.) We live in a temperate climate, so I have no idea what high & low temps do to range.


The two white cars sit side by side in the garage. Of course I had been reading about all the problems Tesla was having with build quality, gaps, etc. I got out a micrometer to measure. The gaps were "evenly even", and the same on both cars.


Since my E92, I have always thought that BMW seats were the best in the industry. Tesla is very close. Of course, Tesla is 'pleather', not leather, and BMW is 'pebble', and doesn't feel like leather.


I really dislike monotone, all black interiors, so that is a big visual negative for Tesla. It's obvious that their factory is just not able to give customers any variations here. (If you've been to the BMW or Mercedes or other good quality factories it is amazing to see different models and colors going down the line one after the other.)


My Bimmer has HUD, and that would be appreciated on the Tesla with all the info on their Model 3 screen. Although, the info available on that screen is amazing, and they just moved the turn-by-turn written directions from the right side to the left-center. Also, I have found the ease of getting navigation requests to the car are roughly one million percent better on the Tesla.


I know this is a BMW Forum, but the Tesla is a competitive car, and that is what this thread is about. FWIW, I sold the E92 to buy an AMG Merc. I sold it after one year in disgust to buy the 340.
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      11-10-2018, 04:36 AM   #100
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Says someone who got a petrol X3 and not a Model X
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Says someone who got a petrol X3 and not a Model X
Model X is like 150 grand, and X3 is x3 times cheaper? Its like I will mock you for having not bought the M140i. It like very ok we all dont spend a gazillion money on a car. X3 is not in a bracket of Model, X M50i or whatever their naming orders are, is.
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      11-11-2018, 11:53 AM   #101
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A video for tesla doing a lap in nurburgring in 2014.https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-a-te...rin-1600644908
Yep, they are absolutely incapable of going around a track, quoting from your link:

The lap itself was around 10 minutes Bridge to Gantry (in heavy traffic) but unfortunately the car went into a reduced power mode about 3 minutes in due to excess battery heat


Or what about this one?



Cuts so much power after about one minute around the track. Crosses the start line at 133mph, comes back 3 minutes later at 114mph. It is slower around that track than a Civic Si by 3 seconds!

Yes they can go fast in a straight line but they aren't a performance car.
Anyway.........
https://www.google.com/amp/s/electre...-electric/amp/
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      11-11-2018, 02:03 PM   #102
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Because it is a golf cart...
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      11-11-2018, 07:23 PM   #103
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Because it is a golf cart...
Obviously you didn't read past the title.....books and their covers, yes I know I heard something like that before. I'll cut to the chase for you. The article is a story about people who fear change and can't admit when their beat.
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      01-12-2019, 01:57 PM   #104
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Not missing any of the 5 3-series I've owned in the last 10 years.
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      01-12-2019, 02:00 PM   #105
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Not missing any of the 5 3-series I've owned in the last 10 years.
I had a deposit for 1.5 years and then canceled as I learned more about design and assembly. Suggest looking at other BEV choices coming soon, such as BMW i4 or Polestar Model 2. Tesla designed an excellent powertrain with a disappointing car around it. After closely examining some showroom models, I was convinced they need a generation or two and some experienced engineers for Body in White, electronics, and seating to help with the replacement model.
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      01-12-2019, 05:08 PM   #106
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I had a deposit for 1.5 years and then canceled as I learned more about design and assembly. Suggest looking at other BEV choices coming soon, such as BMW i4 or Polestar Model 2. Tesla designed an excellent powertrain with a disappointing car around it. After closely examining some showroom models, I was convinced they need a generation or two and some experienced engineers for Body in White, electronics, and seating to help with the replacement model.
Nope, nothing disappointing about a strong chassis. Check out Munroe Associates tear down of model 3, all Sandy Munroe could complain about is how much money they spent on building the car. As far as I am concerned, an over engineered chassis that weight couple hundred pounds too much is not a bad thing as a consumer, especially since the car handles like a BMW should. I couldn't find a safer car. The cooling system is an engineering marvel. The electronics is simple with less harness than a Honda Civic. The Model 3 is a real engineer's dream. So what they over-built the chassis, I say bravo and lucky for all the owners.

I returned the first one with 100% full refund including taxes and fees. There was a scratch and some panel issues, nothing that can't be fixed. Just make sure you get a good one. Most buyers don't care because they are upgrading from 2008 Subaru Outback or 2012 Honda Civic, but I am too critical couldn't stand looking at uneven panel gaps.
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      01-12-2019, 05:44 PM   #107
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I returned the first one with 100% full refund including taxes and fees. There was a scratch and some panel issues, nothing that can't be fixed. Just make sure you get a good one. Most buyers don't care because they are upgrading from 2008 Subaru Outback or 2012 Honda Civic, but I am too critical couldn't stand looking at uneven panel gaps.
On mine, the driver's door was misaligned, I accepted the car and then brought it to the local Tesla service shop, they gave me an X to drive for a week while they took care of it. Otherwise, the body was no worse than any other car in that price range.

Whoever says the Model 3 electronics are bad is out of their mind.

BTW, this Tesla replaced a one of a kind F31 that I loved but could no longer drive after experiencing the Tesla's drivetrain and steering. Pretty much had to lie to all potential buyers (couldn't really tell them "I'm selling this amazing wagon because I f*cking hate driving it now.")

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      01-12-2019, 07:18 PM   #108
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1) Not out of my mind at all. The design and release engineer of the electrical architecture who allowed rear doors to be inoperable from the inside post-crash with loss of power did not have "safety" on their mind...should have been fired immediately. Tesla's answer is for kids/rear seat people to crawl out to the front door openings. Imagine the possible scenarios and outcomes...
2) Tesla forum reports numerous electrical quality failings. Humorous among them is the non-rare inability to get the recharging cable to be released. Many others have been cited by unhappy new owners, some resulting in stranding. I was on that forum for over a year, with a wide range of significant problems resulting from poor design and assembly.
3) One small, but absurd example: I believe it's 3 or 4 levels in a screen menu just to open the glove box...not a deal-killer alone, but indication of poor design.
4) I believe part of the assessment of the body-in-white design was having been designed with all the sophistication of a 1990's Kia, or words to that effect. Far too many small panels with tolerance stack-up problems, versus fewer larger ones, as is common this century. One of the lead engineers apparently joined with no specific automotive experience.
5) I see frunk lids, doors, decklids not fitting. A-pillar weatherstripping contorted from body fit issues.
6) The hip-to-heel metric for the rear seat is so inadequate, many have reported feeling as if they are sitting with their knees under their chins....
....and so on and so on....rookie errors.

Overall, not a bad try for an amateur company, but I had expected more fundamental competence beyond the innovative powertrain. I was relieved to get my grand back, and place it on a 330i.

Musk wouldn't take his excellent powertrain and work with an experienced source for design and assembly. Opportunities missed. In the past two years, he had the only game in town for such a premium positioned BEV. Automotive News reported last week 3000 cars in inventory...unsold. Price reduction of $2000. With BEVs about to launch from companies who know how to design and build cars, the real market competition is about to demonstrate Tesla weaknesses. I'm all for a BEV, but from a much more competent manufacturer. Those cars will also benefit from lower center of gravity from underbody battery, with handling advantages, and relieved of ICE motor in front, superior impact management. They will just be better designed and assembled for my $50 grand.
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      01-12-2019, 07:41 PM   #109
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1) Not out of my mind at all. The design and release engineer of the electrical architecture who allowed rear doors to be inoperable from the inside post-crash with loss of power did not have "safety" on their mind...should have been fired immediately. Tesla's answer is for kids/rear seat people to crawl out to the front door openings. Imagine the possible scenarios and outcomes...
personally for me the fact that your warranty could be 1-2 years given the level of desperation he's showing and the debt load would be enough. Tesla will have to be reorganized at some point is my bet. and there's lots of much more well made alternatives. at this point a Kia Niro ev or whatever is both better built and cheaper
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      01-12-2019, 10:21 PM   #110
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A lot of misinformation and misrepresentation of the Model 3. Agree to disagree. Like I said, why would anyone complain Tesla spent too much money on the chassis resulting in the safest car available to purchase? Couple hundred pounds overweigh is no big deal imo. Car handles better than E90. You obviously are put off by Tesla somehow, and hoping someone else makes one soon. Problem is, no one else is building a competent EV from the ground up. Not anytime soon, and they will be positioned at a premium over the gas engine counter parts. Key point is "from ground up". Look at Mercedes EQC. I wouldn't count on G20 EV to compete, it never will measure up. Tesla have some of the finest engineers (as Sandy Munroe described them as Navy Seals of engineers).

I was that guy, who shrugged off any Tesla and expected BMW and Toyota to wipe out Tesla soon, until I did my homework and took a Model 3 out for a test drive. There is no comparison imo. Model 3 is not perfect for us either, but no car is.

Anyone complains about Model 3 glove box open button obviously haven't spent anytime in it because there are plenty to complain about, but glove box is a big stretch.
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