Bimmerpost
3
/
4 Series
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions Why doesn't BMW put a quicker steering ratio in the 3 Series?

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-22-2019, 03:23 PM   #1
alpinewhite3
Major
alpinewhite3's Avatar
United_States
554
Rep
1,066
Posts

Drives: Currently searching
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: North Carolina

iTrader: (0)

Why doesn't BMW put a quicker steering ratio in the 3 Series?

The 330i has a 14.1:1 steering ratio while the 330i xDrive has a 14.9:1 steering ratio. Contrast that with the Giulia, for example, whose steering ratio is 11.8:1. It seems like a quicker steering ratio would be an easy way to make the feel more nimble and light and therefore be more fun to drive. So, why don't they give it a faster ratio? What would the downsides be?

I only bring this up because i drove my friend's Impreza sport wagon last night (it has a 13:1 ratio), and it was surprisingly super fun and nimble to toss around in day to day driving. Obviously the 330i is a much better all around vehicle but I was left feeling a bit envious of the easy going and playful nature of the wagon - almost like a point and shoot with your pinky at low speeds, go cart type of feeling. I think a lot of it has to do with the ratio because the wheel itself wasn't super light either - similar to F30 lightness.

Last edited by alpinewhite3; 08-22-2019 at 03:31 PM..
Appreciate 1
      08-22-2019, 04:04 PM   #2
upsidedownfunnel
Colonel
United_States
1996
Rep
2,499
Posts

Drives: 2014 335i
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2014 BMW 335i  [0.00]
Might have something to do with being tuned to drive the fast long roads of the Autobahn. Faster lower ratio steering makes the car much twitchier. It wouldn't cost the car manufacturer anything to do since it's just a gear change. The car is tuned like this to suit the widest variety of drivers. You can always get the variable sport steering which has a higher ratio on center but a faster lower ratio off center.
Appreciate 1
      08-22-2019, 04:28 PM   #3
alpinewhite3
Major
alpinewhite3's Avatar
United_States
554
Rep
1,066
Posts

Drives: Currently searching
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: North Carolina

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Might have something to do with being tuned to drive the fast long roads of the Autobahn. Faster lower ratio steering makes the car much twitchier. It wouldn't cost the car manufacturer anything to do since it's just a gear change. The car is tuned like this to suit the widest variety of drivers. You can always get the variable sport steering which has a higher ratio on center but a faster lower ratio off center.
Thank you, that makes sense. I did drive the Impreza up to 80 mph and it was super wobbly/twitchy. I chalked it up to the chassis but it may be steering ratio. How is the Giulia at high speeds? Shouldn't it also be very twitchy then ?

EDIT: After doing some research seems like the Giulia has sort of an on-center dead spot at high speeds that allows for some leeway in steering inputs.
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2019, 02:08 AM   #4
Jebk
Private
22
Rep
62
Posts

Drives: G20 330e
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Uk

iTrader: (0)

I currently drive a Stelvio with the same quick rack as the Giulia, and even on wide 20s it can get a bit nervous at speed.

In the US, The 3 Series seems to be marketed very differently - you only get the performance models. Over here in Europe, they're mostly the ones with ~150hp diesels - basically mile munches for sales reps. The 330i and above are pretty rare. Although, the 330e is now a big seller due to company car tax. I've just ordered one where my default would have been a 320d.
Appreciate 1
      08-23-2019, 04:58 AM   #5
Weiner0123
First Lieutenant
Weiner0123's Avatar
Canada
417
Rep
381
Posts

Drives: 2020 m340i. 2013 328i
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Calgary

iTrader: (0)

Anyone notice on the G20 to at highway speeds or anything about 80km really the steering wheel becomes almost rock hard and requires a lot of force, I love that and wish it was like that at lower speeds,
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2019, 05:43 AM   #6
Eagle Creek
Part of the bimmer family!
Eagle Creek's Avatar
Netherlands
139
Rep
293
Posts

Drives: BMWG20; BMW E90
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: The Netherlands

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 G20 330e  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebk View Post
I currently drive a Stelvio with the same quick rack as the Giulia, and even on wide 20s it can get a bit nervous at speed.

In the US, The 3 Series seems to be marketed very differently - you only get the performance models. Over here in Europe, they're mostly the ones with ~150hp diesels - basically mile munches for sales reps. The 330i and above are pretty rare. Although, the 330e is now a big seller due to company car tax. I've just ordered one where my default would have been a 320d.
So that's the reason! I was already astonished by seeing so many M340i here on the forums while everyone at the Dutch forums are talking about the 320i and maybe a 330i. But surely no M340i; haven't seen a single one on the road nor at the dealership.
__________________
“You can put wings on a pig, but that doesn't make it an eagle.”
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2019, 06:25 AM   #7
Jebk
Private
22
Rep
62
Posts

Drives: G20 330e
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Uk

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Creek View Post
So that's the reason! I was already astonished by seeing so many M340i here on the forums while everyone at the Dutch forums are talking about the 320i and maybe a 330i. But surely no M340i; haven't seen a single one on the road nor at the dealership.
Pretty standard for all European marques in the US. Smallest BMW they can buy is a 230i (or maybe an X1 28i, but that's splitting hairs). Most common thing I see on the roads here is 114i, maybe 116d and F30 318d.

But then American cars are weird. It amuses me every time I rent over there. They see a baby and try to up-sell you into a van. It's like no, I got to the airport in a golf fine, I'm sure I can manage in a Camry. They think you're from the moon.
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2019, 08:53 AM   #8
alpinewhite3
Major
alpinewhite3's Avatar
United_States
554
Rep
1,066
Posts

Drives: Currently searching
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: North Carolina

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebk View Post
In the US, The 3 Series seems to be marketed very differently - you only get the performance models. Over here in Europe, they're mostly the ones with ~150hp diesels - basically mile munches for sales reps. The 330i and above are pretty rare. Although, the 330e is now a big seller due to company car tax. I've just ordered one where my default would have been a 320d.
I wish we had the 320d in the states. Whenever I'm in Europe, I always end up in a 320d rental. Drives just as well, and I get 50+ mpg with a range of over 600 miles. It doesn't feel that slow either. It would sell so well here.
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2019, 08:55 AM   #9
Cortexiphan
Major
Cortexiphan's Avatar
2025
Rep
1,195
Posts

Drives: 24' BMW iX
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Boston, MA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
I wish we had the 320d in the states.

...

It would sell so well here.
BMW brought the F30 320d to the US market (though it was designated 328d here instead), and nobody bought it.
__________________
11’ E92 ///M3
15’ F82 ///M4
18’ G30 540i ///Msport
21’ G20 ///M340i

24' i20 iX xDrive50
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2019, 10:02 AM   #10
xlover
Colonel
No_Country
2191
Rep
2,554
Posts

Drives: 2023 X7 40i
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Boston

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
The 330i has a 14.1:1 steering ratio while the 330i xDrive has a 14.9:1 steering ratio. Contrast that with the Giulia, for example, whose steering ratio is 11.8:1. It seems like a quicker steering ratio would be an easy way to make the feel more nimble and light and therefore be more fun to drive. So, why don't they give it a faster ratio? What would the downsides be?

I only bring this up because i drove my friend's Impreza sport wagon last night (it has a 13:1 ratio), and it was surprisingly super fun and nimble to toss around in day to day driving. Obviously the 330i is a much better all around vehicle but I was left feeling a bit envious of the easy going and playful nature of the wagon - almost like a point and shoot with your pinky at low speeds, go cart type of feeling. I think a lot of it has to do with the ratio because the wheel itself wasn't super light either - similar to F30 lightness.
Probably worth adding that BMW and other volume luxury brands tune the steering based on the most common driving style which is one hand on the top of the wheel.

Bmw pretty much explicitly stated that in a C+D article on the 3 series development. Steering optimized for 2 hands on either side (where the driver has the most leverage on the wheel) feels very heavy and is harder to be accurate when the driver has just one hand on the top where there is significantly less leverage
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2019, 11:59 AM   #11
stein_325i
Ring Leader of G8X Haters
stein_325i's Avatar
No_Country
25051
Rep
8,761
Posts

Drives: A Car
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: All-Around

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebk View Post
I currently drive a Stelvio with the same quick rack as the Giulia, and even on wide 20s it can get a bit nervous at speed.

In the US, The 3 Series seems to be marketed very differently - you only get the performance models. Over here in Europe, they're mostly the ones with ~150hp diesels - basically mile munches for sales reps. The 330i and above are pretty rare. Although, the 330e is now a big seller due to company car tax. I've just ordered one where my default would have been a 320d.
One thing to remember though, is the Stelvio has a higher center of gravity, and is a physically bigger vehicle. I remember Jeremy Clarkson mentioned this in the Grand Tour, saying the quick steering does wonders for the Giulia QF sedan, but doesn't work well on the heavier and higher Stelvio SUV.

I've driven the Giulia Ti Sport, and I find the quick steering to make a really engaging driving experience, as well as making the vehicle feel more nimble when driving. I didn't find it to be a problem on the highway, although I only took it up to 75mph.
__________________
Current Garage: 2022 Mercedes-Benz S 580 / 2023 Genesis GV70 2.5T / 2007 Mercedes-Benz E 350 / 1999 Mazda MX-5 Miata
Retired: '95 E36 325i 5MT / '04 E46 330i 6MT / '05 E83 X3 3.0i / '11 E90 335xi / '17 G30 540i / '19 F87 M2C 6MT / '19 MB CLS 53 / '20 MB GLC 300
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2019, 12:08 PM   #12
Jebk
Private
22
Rep
62
Posts

Drives: G20 330e
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Uk

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
One thing to remember though, is the Stelvio has a higher center of gravity, and is a physically bigger vehicle. I remember Jeremy Clarkson mentioned this in the Grand Tour, saying the quick steering does wonders for the Giulia QF sedan, but doesn't work well on the heavier and higher Stelvio SUV.

I've driven the Giulia Ti Sport, and I find the quick steering to make a really engaging driving experience, as well as making the vehicle feel more nimble when driving. I didn't find it to be a problem on the highway, although I only took it up to 75mph.
I've driven multiple giulias (petrol and diesel) as well and they do the same thing. It handles fantastically if your driving it hard, but you have to drive it the whole time (if that makes sense).

It's a great car (as is the stelvio) but it's not built to be a mile muncher the 3 series is setup to be.
Appreciate 0
      08-24-2019, 12:23 AM   #13
chiefneil
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
772
Rep
1,503
Posts

Drives: 2014 335i M-Sport
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Arizona

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
Probably worth adding that BMW and other volume luxury brands tune the steering based on the most common driving style which is one hand on the top of the wheel.

Bmw pretty much explicitly stated that in a C+D article on the 3 series development. Steering optimized for 2 hands on either side (where the driver has the most leverage on the wheel) feels very heavy and is harder to be accurate when the driver has just one hand on the top where there is significantly less leverage
Yup, raise your hand if you died a little inside when a BMW engineer proudly said they optimized steering for people who drive one-handed on the autobahn.
Appreciate 2
stein_325i25051.00
KRS_SN13104.50
      08-24-2019, 08:34 AM   #14
Bumble
Private
Bumble's Avatar
27
Rep
71
Posts

Drives: BMW 3 series. Aiudi Q3
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Surrey

iTrader: (0)

Don't know what the ratio was but my previous F30 seemed to have a much sharper steering than the new G20. To the point that if I felt a sneeze coming on I locked my elbows into my ribs.
Appreciate 0
      08-24-2019, 11:41 AM   #15
stein_325i
Ring Leader of G8X Haters
stein_325i's Avatar
No_Country
25051
Rep
8,761
Posts

Drives: A Car
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: All-Around

iTrader: (0)

While of course a faster steering ratio like the Giulia would be nice, I find the G20's steering ratio to also be very good. I'd rather they work on steering feel.

My friend bought an ATS-V the other day, and just wow, that steering rack is amazingly communicative, it feels like that of an old M3 but still of course retains a nice heft and ratio.

The funny thing is, I did some research, and its actually a ZF made EPS system, one that BMW used in the F30 (not sure if its still used, but probably is), the big difference being that Cadillac figured out how to tune it perfectly. BMW should honestly poach some of their engineers, they do some amazing chassis and steering work!
__________________
Current Garage: 2022 Mercedes-Benz S 580 / 2023 Genesis GV70 2.5T / 2007 Mercedes-Benz E 350 / 1999 Mazda MX-5 Miata
Retired: '95 E36 325i 5MT / '04 E46 330i 6MT / '05 E83 X3 3.0i / '11 E90 335xi / '17 G30 540i / '19 F87 M2C 6MT / '19 MB CLS 53 / '20 MB GLC 300
Appreciate 0
      08-24-2019, 01:27 PM   #16
alpinewhite3
Major
alpinewhite3's Avatar
United_States
554
Rep
1,066
Posts

Drives: Currently searching
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: North Carolina

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumble View Post
Don't know what the ratio was but my previous F30 seemed to have a much sharper steering than the new G20. To the point that if I felt a sneeze coming on I locked my elbows into my ribs.
Anyone know the F30's ratio ?

EDIT: The 2012 328i' had a ratio of 15.1:1 so G20 should feel much quicker.
Appreciate 0
      08-24-2019, 03:36 PM   #17
Wineguy
Enlisted Member
United_States
22
Rep
44
Posts

Drives: M535,328i,328d,330i
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: California

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
BMW brought the F30 320d to the US market (though it was designated 328d here instead), and nobody bought it.
Own a 328d and it’s agreat car. Good torque and fantastic gas mileage. I wish they kept the 335d. BMW discontinued it before I could snag one.
Appreciate 0
      08-24-2019, 05:19 PM   #18
Calamari
First Lieutenant
209
Rep
310
Posts

Drives: 2024 G21 330d, 2008 E87 118i
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Croatia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weiner0123 View Post
Anyone notice on the G20 to at highway speeds or anything about 80km really the steering wheel becomes almost rock hard and requires a lot of force, I love that and wish it was like that at lower speeds,
I noticed that the first time I took my car on a long spirited drive on A-roads. The steering heaviness increases significantly after 70-80km/h. It's still not heavy enough to be tiring, but it's definitely much heavier than in city on lower speed. I would say it's pretty much spot on.

And about the steering rack ratio, or "quickness"... Coming from a car that had quicker and more direct steering in the middle position, I can only appreciate the relaxed center steering of the G20. While F30 felt loose and disconnected in the middle, G20 is also slower around the center but manages to feel tight, precise and direct. This slight lightness in the middle allows you to feel relaxed at the wheel at high speeds, especially on european highways where 150km/h and above is a cruising speed that can be driven for hours.
My last car was more direct and quicker in the middle and this made it tiring at high-speed autobahn driving.

Last edited by Calamari; 08-25-2019 at 04:41 PM..
Appreciate 1
      08-25-2019, 11:16 AM   #19
530iDriver
Colonel
530iDriver's Avatar
United_States
1708
Rep
2,539
Posts

Drives: 2017 BMW 530i
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Florida

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
I wish we had the 320d in the states.

...

It would sell so well here.
BMW brought the F30 320d to the US market (though it was designated 328d here instead), and nobody bought it.
Saw one last week. And yes, they didn't sell at all. Diesel has a bad stigma in the US, is expensive as premium 91/93 unleaded gas and for some it means refueling at truck stops when on road trips.

Remember, we don't get taxed here based on displacement/carbon emissions and compared to most of Europe, gasoline is still very cheap here. We have no incentive whatsoever to put up with what most perceive to be as tractor engines.

In Europe people get taxed up the ting yang and punished the larger the motor is and whether it drinks lots of petrol and emits higher emissions. This is one of the reasons why diesels are still very popular in most of those countries as they are taxed less than gasoline counterparts not to mention lower running costs.

Sadly, people here in the US still doesn't realize how good they have it when it comes to cars vs the rest of the world. Cheap cars, cheap gas and more choice.
__________________
2017 BMW 530i, Sport Line,Alpine White, Canberra Beige Sensatec, 19 inch V-Spoke wheels, basic plain Jane build with no options whatsoever..... "Less is more".

Before: 2011 BMW 328i E90 sedan, Platinum Bronze Metallic, Dakota Brown leather, 17 inch wheels, 6-speed auto, N52 6 Cyl inline N/A goodness....
Appreciate 0
      08-25-2019, 11:24 AM   #20
530iDriver
Colonel
530iDriver's Avatar
United_States
1708
Rep
2,539
Posts

Drives: 2017 BMW 530i
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Florida

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wineguy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
BMW brought the F30 320d to the US market (though it was designated 328d here instead), and nobody bought it.
Own a 328d and it’s agreat car. Good torque and fantastic gas mileage. I wish they kept the 335d. BMW discontinued it before I could snag one.
At one of point in time I was tempted by the 335d E90 but they had many reliability issues that turned me off completely from considering one. Also hard to get at the time on the second hand market.
__________________
2017 BMW 530i, Sport Line,Alpine White, Canberra Beige Sensatec, 19 inch V-Spoke wheels, basic plain Jane build with no options whatsoever..... "Less is more".

Before: 2011 BMW 328i E90 sedan, Platinum Bronze Metallic, Dakota Brown leather, 17 inch wheels, 6-speed auto, N52 6 Cyl inline N/A goodness....
Appreciate 0
      08-25-2019, 03:30 PM   #21
Eagle Creek
Part of the bimmer family!
Eagle Creek's Avatar
Netherlands
139
Rep
293
Posts

Drives: BMWG20; BMW E90
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: The Netherlands

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 G20 330e  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinewhite3 View Post
I wish we had the 320d in the states.

...

It would sell so well here.
BMW brought the F30 320d to the US market (though it was designated 328d here instead), and nobody bought it.
Saw one last week. And yes, they didn't sell at all. Diesel has a bad stigma in the US, is expensive as premium 91/93 unleaded gas and for some it means refueling at truck stops when on road trips.
You even call 91 premium? In the Netherlands you can't buy anything lower than 95. 98 is considered premium and in Germany they also sell 100..
__________________
“You can put wings on a pig, but that doesn't make it an eagle.”
Appreciate 0
      08-25-2019, 04:07 PM   #22
chiefneil
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
772
Rep
1,503
Posts

Drives: 2014 335i M-Sport
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Arizona

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Creek View Post
You even call 91 premium? In the Netherlands you cN buy anything lower than 95. 98 is considered premium and in Germany they also sell 100..
Octane ratings are calculated differently in the US vs EU. US 91 is equivalent to EU 97.
Appreciate 2
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:15 PM.




g20
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST