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      05-21-2019, 08:38 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Ragged Edge View Post
The pleasure derived from the skill required to drive a rear wheel drive car cannot be matched by all-wheel drive. Yes, a manual transmission is part of the equation, and adds to the enjoyment. There is very much more control to be had with a manual transmission and rear-wheel drive, and thus greater pleasure putting those skills to use... even more so in traffic! It gives you something to enjoy doing besides your iPhone, make-up, and the radio (I'ld rather listen to engine noises).
Long live the manual, rear-wheel drive M3!
I generally agree with you, but the exception was the Mitsubishi Evo. On the other hand, since the M3 will never be set up for gravel/low grip conditions where ability to rotate is paramount, an AWD M3 will sadly never be “a larger Evo”, but more of a “smaller M5”.

I could be wrong.
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      05-21-2019, 08:44 AM   #332
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If BMW continued to cater to the enthusiast market, they would have been out of business years ago. Does it suck? Absolutely. Is it needed? Absolutely.
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      05-21-2019, 08:47 AM   #333
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I generally agree with you, but the exception was the Mitsubishi Evo. On the other hand, since the M3 will never be set up for gravel/low grip conditions where ability to rotate is paramount, an AWD M3 will sadly never be “a larger Evo”, but more of a “smaller M5”.

I could be wrong.
Bingo was his name-o. An AWD M3 would 100% be aimed at more of a refined experience, just like the M5. If you think an AWD M3 is going to be anything like a Mitsubishi Evo, you're going to be VERY disappointed.
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      05-21-2019, 08:48 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by MBLocal017 View Post
I was a pretty diehard bmw fan until this current generation where the software updates made a drastic difference between the various civic, comp, cs, GTS models. I was able to get my civic m4 dialed in with a tune and various oem software coding combos, but the fact the car wasn’t out of the box setup to be the best that it could be annoyed me. I understand that incremental improvements are made over time, but now bmw releases multiple setups on top of one another, so you’re not getting incremental improvements, you’re just getting artificially enhanced / downgraded versions to hit target price points. The various downgraded AMG models started this trend and it, in my opinion, really degraded the brand cachet.

Leaving aside brand dilution of the M badge, it used to be you bought an M car and you knew it was setup to be the best it could be at the time - suspension, engine tune, etc. I understand the appeal of 3 settings for everything from steering, dampers, throttle, valves open / shut, brake boost (now a thing apparently!), but to quote Jeremy Clarkson - “I don’t want to set it up, that’s what I paid you for!”. If you’ve got 3 settings for 5 systems and a separate set of software tweaks for 5 versions of the same M car, I struggle to see how you can devote adequate time to making one “the ultimate driving machine”. Oh well, guess I’m getting old...
The thing is, until recently there just weren’t options for manufacturers to do so, the technology wasn’t there. There has been a revolution in manufacturing over the last decade, with advanced technology seeping laterally and becoming quasi-ubiquitous. Configuring capabilities through software changes is the name of the game. These companies are simply taking advantage of what exists nowadays.

It’s hard to buy a bad car now. It’s only when manufacturers build it to a price point, or get caught out of a multi-year refresh/model cycle, that you notice big differences.

Similar technology exists in cars of the same class, that’s why the M3, RS4, C63 and Giulia perform so similarly. In 1995 it was a very different story.
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      05-21-2019, 09:00 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
If BMW continued to cater to the enthusiast market, they would have been out of business years ago. Does it suck? Absolutely. Is it needed? Absolutely.
So your saying they are the German Toyota and it's not their Fault?
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      05-21-2019, 09:00 AM   #336
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Almost everyone here complaining about manual is driving a turbocharged engine.... Where are the Naturally aspirated drivers at. O right they got killed off just like the manual drivers.
They're in an earlier model if they chose to stay with the brand. Many E92 M3 owners, even plenty who switched back after owning an F8X.
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      05-21-2019, 09:39 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
I think there will be a manual option. But I expect it to be even more limited this time around - maybe "base" M3 only. The F series GTS and CS were both DCT only, and I can see the same, slow cut-off for the MT continuing on the F generation.

My bet is that the base is RWD and has a MT option, and Comp, CS, and CSL will be ZF8-only. With AWD...
I think the latest update points to manual and rwd being offered on MORE variants.
Base- rwd/xdrive 6mt/auto
Comp- xdrive 6mt/auto

I look at it like this, BMW went out of their way to obfuscate the information in their systems to prevent the types of leaks our resident insider can access which means they have something planned they don't want spoiled. (If you read ynguldyn responses to questions they basically took out all the detail and just left placeholders for base and comp) If they were planning on cutting the manual and rwd they would let those leaks sit out there to build acceptance and soften the blow on the traditionalist base when the final details are released.
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      05-21-2019, 10:12 AM   #338
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The fact is, AWD is starting to become a necessity. One of the biggest flaws of the F80/F82 was that they just couldn't get power down because torque came on way too quickly. Depending on how an AWD system is tuned, you can still have RWD fun. The M5 goes 0-60 in sub 3 seconds because it can grip and go.
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      05-21-2019, 10:20 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Alan l. View Post
It would be a mistake if BMW only offered the manual option on the "lesser" model M3. Its like a slap in the face for the purist M owner. Who's to say those that want a manual doesn't want the Competition package as well...

I don't even mind if the M3 came with the switchable AWD system that the M5 has because having traction to put the power down is a welcomed addition that we don't have now

Give people options BMW!

Alan
As stated in the article, BMW is cutting drivetrain choices by 50%.

That boat has sailed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
I think the latest update points to manual and rwd being offered on MORE variants.
Base- rwd/xdrive 6mt/auto
Comp- xdrive 6mt/auto

I look at it like this, BMW went out of their way to obfuscate the information in their systems to prevent the types of leaks our resident insider can access which means they have something planned they don't want spoiled. (If you read ynguldyn responses to questions they basically took out all the detail and just left placeholders for base and comp) If they were planning on cutting the manual and rwd they would let those leaks sit out there to build acceptance and soften the blow on the traditionalist base when the final details are released.
If you think BMW granted access to Bloomberg with pics, detailed parts info and quotes from actual Management and Board Members to throw you off the scent, then you are sadly mistaken.

Last edited by IK6SPEED; 05-21-2019 at 10:27 AM..
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      05-21-2019, 10:23 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
If BMW continued to cater to the enthusiast market, they would have been out of business years ago. Does it suck? Absolutely. Is it needed? Absolutely.
That is what Porsche thought. Sort of like The M3 CS, the auto only GT3 did not sell well. Now, they are selling 6MT GT3’s like hotcakes, GT4 was manual only even the Focus RS (manual only) sold well.

Is Porsche launching a new manual GT4 as a special non-profit project for enthusiasts? Why did BMW decide to offer the M2 CS with a manual?

Over the last five years, I have had many conversations with other F80 owners, “what made you get the F80”.....”It was the only car I could find with four doors and a manual”......there is a large market that people take for granted. Many who buy X cars for their spouse.
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      05-21-2019, 10:30 AM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
I think the latest update points to manual and rwd being offered on MORE variants.
Base- rwd/xdrive 6mt/auto
Comp- xdrive 6mt/auto

I look at it like this, BMW went out of their way to obfuscate the information in their systems to prevent the types of leaks our resident insider can access which means they have something planned they don't want spoiled. (If you read ynguldyn responses to questions they basically took out all the detail and just left placeholders for base and comp) If they were planning on cutting the manual and rwd they would let those leaks sit out there to build acceptance and soften the blow on the traditionalist base when the final details are released.
I hope so, but I think the insiders know, stating no conformation on manual transmission is a hot-button topic. The pure was a fantastic idea, IMO, if that model gets cut, it is disappointing, but if they cut all manuals it is time for a revolution

JK, kind of.....
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      05-21-2019, 10:36 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Can you say German Toyota
One only needs to read the forums to observe that BMW attracts a different type of buyer now (unfortunately for the BMW enthusiasts).

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Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
That is what Porsche thought. Sort of like The M3 CS, the auto only GT3 did not sell well. Now, they are selling 6MT GT3's like hotcakes, GT4 was manual only even the Focus RS (manual only) sold well.

Is Porsche launching a new manual GT4 as a special non-profit project for enthusiasts? Why did BMW decide to offer the M2 CS with a manual?

Over the last five years, I have had many conversations with other F80 owners, "what made you get the F80"....."It was the only car I could find with four doors and a manual"......there is a large market that people take for granted. Many who buy X cars for their spouse.
Read above.

Porsche is not BMW. Porsche has a different business model.
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      05-21-2019, 10:49 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
I think the latest update points to manual and rwd being offered on MORE variants.
Base- rwd/xdrive 6mt/auto
Comp- xdrive 6mt/auto

I look at it like this, BMW went out of their way to obfuscate the information in their systems to prevent the types of leaks our resident insider can access which means they have something planned they don't want spoiled. (If you read ynguldyn responses to questions they basically took out all the detail and just left placeholders for base and comp) If they were planning on cutting the manual and rwd they would let those leaks sit out there to build acceptance and soften the blow on the traditionalist base when the final details are released.
I hope you're right - but elsewhere in the thread, we saw that BMW is moving towards less drivetrains and more efficiencies across the entire line. To me, that means less options, because they're really making manuals for the North American market, at least based on the historical take rates.

Will be interesting to watch...
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      05-21-2019, 10:54 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo@BMWofFairfax View Post
The fact is, AWD is starting to become a necessity. One of the biggest flaws of the F80/F82 was that they just couldn't get power down because torque came on way too quickly. Depending on how an AWD system is tuned, you can still have RWD fun. The M5 goes 0-60 in sub 3 seconds because it can grip and go.
Unless the car goes on a diet - then you don't need AWD to put the power down.

How much further can they go, anyway, in terms of 0-60 times for example? Are we hoping the J series M3 can go 0-60 in less than a second?
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      05-21-2019, 11:26 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by seis-speed View Post
The US has ~ 30% take rate on the F80 6MT. I would suspect that number to jump higher with competition for manuals dwindling and people wanting the "last Mcar with a manaul".

If BMW does not offer a manual that large group, me included (bought a F806mt new and F876mt new) we will buy used or buy from your competitors. Not offering a manual would be a huge mistake by BMW, especially, after alluding that it would in fact, do so.

M clearly indicated through leaks and through interviews, that The G80 would have a manual transmission. They know it has a special connection to the enthusiast crowd - many who have stuck with the brand buying multiple generations of manual transmission cars.

If they pull the plug on the G80 manual I will never buy another BMW again.
BMW - Your customer base wants and buys manual transmission, please do not screw this up.
Hey I'm totally with you. All I drive and want to drive is a manual car. Thing is if BMW makes the mistake and not offer manual for the G80 what other competitor offers manual that has similarities of the M3 AND that would meet your needs and expectations that BMW has already given you? I feel like I'm in a catch 22 as well because I honestly would not know where to go if the G80 has no manual option.
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      05-21-2019, 12:41 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
See what happens when you ASSUME? phrases you heard as a child... become true.
I still love my CS in DCT (night and day versus a base or comp F80 in handling). Its the first ever auto car ive owned and Im 37. My lease was up and I was 15k miles over my allotment. To stick with a manual I would have had to make a terrible financial decision.
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      05-21-2019, 12:53 PM   #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBLocal017 View Post
I was a pretty diehard bmw fan until this current generation where the software updates made a drastic difference between the various civic, comp, cs, GTS models. I was able to get my civic m4 dialed in with a tune and various oem software coding combos, but the fact the car wasn’t out of the box setup to be the best that it could be annoyed me. I understand that incremental improvements are made over time, but now bmw releases multiple setups on top of one another, so you’re not getting incremental improvements, you’re just getting artificially enhanced / downgraded versions to hit target price points. The various downgraded AMG models started this trend and it, in my opinion, really degraded the brand cachet.

Leaving aside brand dilution of the M badge, it used to be you bought an M car and you knew it was setup to be the best it could be at the time - suspension, engine tune, etc. I understand the appeal of 3 settings for everything from steering, dampers, throttle, valves open / shut, brake boost (now a thing apparently!), but to quote Jeremy Clarkson - “I don’t want to set it up, that’s what I paid you for!”. If you’ve got 3 settings for 5 systems and a separate set of software tweaks for 5 versions of the same M car, I struggle to see how you can devote adequate time to making one “the ultimate driving machine”. Oh well, guess I’m getting old...
this just literally isnt true. There have ALWAYS been SEVERAL uprated M models available each generation, esp in form of a "competition" package or model. The E30 had a Sport Evo which had in-cabin adjustable dampers...in freaking 1990!
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      05-21-2019, 12:55 PM   #348
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I suspect that competition will be delayed if anything and perhaps a power/reliability issue was found at 500 hp.

Pure is consistent with motorrad naming conventions and has been positively received.

Could also be M3 base isn't competitive with Camaro and 911 or whatever they set as competition.
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      05-21-2019, 01:38 PM   #349
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Well but it looks like people don't want R&D do they?
RWD requires way less R&D than a xdrive considering BMW xdrive drives & feels like RWD more than any other AWD in the market. Manual doesn't require any R&D at all, (Well, they did R&D on manuals adding rev-matching, guess what, whiners were whining about that too!) but an AT that is almost as fast as DCT does. And all those electronics that people are complaining about require a lot of R&D as well. If BMW released something like an E46 M3 (with awful damping, incredibly bad SMG tansmission, no adjustability other than one 'Sport' setting) they wouldn't need to spend a dime on R&D.

So, basically, you're both rejecting anything that comes out of R&D, you want to stick to the old inferior technologies, then you're complaining most R&D money goes to electric cars.

Also, BMWs are the more "drivers' cars" and "ultimate driving machines" than they're ever been, and they're not 'heavy', as all their models are the lightest ones in their respective classes by huge margins. Being a good driver's machine have NOTHING to do with manual or AWD, it has more to do with the implementation of AT and AWD systems, which BMW excels at (Like F90 M5)
Normally I don't defend BMW brand warriors but you are right in the sense that the weight of modern BMW is hardly an issue.

Most here couldn't handle 700 lbs/ft torque RWD. I love my S85 for it's easy going torque and crazy power.

700lbs/ft of torque is just insane and I'd buy an Audi over a RWD M5 if I have to have that style of engine. I'm just not going to take a $110k vehicle to the track when it's got INDYCAR levels of power and a less serious aero situation. I realize the weight helps a lot but I know what I can handle and I'd feel much more comfortable with AWD on my side to help control the torque.
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      05-21-2019, 01:54 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
With a 50% elimination in drivetrains, yep. A recent Bloomberg article spelled it out:

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2...erman-engines/

"In just a few years BMW will sell a dozen battery-powered models. The transition is already proving painful and expensive. Last month, expecting a 10 percent slump in profit this year, the company said it would begin a 12 billion-euro efficiency campaign to pay for this battery-focused revamp. Starting in 2021, meanwhile, BMW plans to eliminate up to 50 percent of drivetrain options. About a third of its 133,000-strong workforce has been trained to handle production of electric vehicles—and it's clear that all of today's employees won't be necessary for tomorrow's tasks."
Well I've been bitching for a while that this ZF8 business in M cars was purely a money saving thing and now it's out of the bag to be true.

The writing was everywhere anyway. Anyone praising the ZF8 saying it's ok to be in the M5 should be slapped. Up charged for a cheap commuter transmission so BMW can report profits while these electric models are in development but not being sold.

Here's the picture we have to hope for:

Electric cars take over as the 328i of BMW and make BMW a bunch of money so the M division can justify expenses for things like DCT, SMG, adjustable brakes Manuals, aero, etc. Right now the current M cars will be remembered as the worst and most out of touch philosophically with what an M car should be: Motorsport on the road.

Either that or electric flops and BMW does a 90s era Porsche style of barebones crap interiors to try to scrape back to normal profits.

Good News is electric will flop or succeed and become the Cayenne of BMW allowing funding for amazing cars or it will be the Lotus Evora of BMW and flop so bad BmW goes through drastic reorganization in order to recover.

Basically, everyone's complaints about cheap interiors, commuter focused chassis, and lame M tech is admitted by BMW at this point. The good news is we will be through the woods by 2025 for better or worse.

Either that or we all find a new start up brand inspired by 80s bmw and Porsche and the whole thing starts over. Seems to be the general industry trend. Look at Chanel purses. Used to be a fashion icon, now it's seen as, pardon, cheap Asian wear. The fashion elite moved on a long time ago to smaller businesses as Chanel makes clothes to sell for money instead of to make a statement.
Different priorities and all that.
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      05-21-2019, 01:57 PM   #351
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this just literally isnt true. There have ALWAYS been SEVERAL uprated M models available each generation, esp in form of a "competition" package or model. The E30 had a Sport Evo which had in-cabin adjustable dampers...in freaking 1990!
Sure - but did they release them on top of each other with minimal changes to hardware and just tweak tuning to justify the price increase on the comp/CS package? I understand the need to keep things fresh with incremental changes, but releasing the base and comp package simultaneously while making one a better package to part buyers with a couple more dollars doesn't do a whole lot to endear me to the brand, and I think having half baked versions of M cars out there hurts the reputation of the brand overall. Granted a lot of those early bugs in my 2015 F82 were solved by having someone upgrade mine with various software settings from the ZCP, CS and GTS, but without me proactively doing that, the car sucked.

I don't know that early iterations of the the E92 and E46 received the same questionable treatment. Maybe, but it was pretty disappointing to me as a buyer.
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      05-21-2019, 02:00 PM   #352
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M3 hasn't really been below 3k lbs since e30. And really hasn't gained much weight at all. I'd say 3600 lbs should be a hard cap and 3900 for the M5 but i also realize my M5 is super comfy and I'm not exactly willing to change that atm.

If you want a 2700 lbs car you can buy a Lotus or even a GT3 M6. BMW would love people to buy race cars for sporting purposes but nobody wants them. It'd be a lot easier to make them legal for the road than all the money this board dumps into making their BMWs trackable or even on ramp racers.

The weight reduction is always attractive but the plastic, aging engine platforms, and slush boxes are far worse crimes.
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