Bimmerpost
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BIMMERPOST Universal Forums General BMW News and Cars Discussion Latest BMW transmission purchase yields ZF its biggest order ever

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-12-2019, 12:30 PM   #23
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
1148
Rep
2,180
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
wonder what's ZF going to do when car switch to electric in big numbers (i.e. no transmission)
ZF is heavily involved in the development of electric drive trains.
And its a myth that an electric drive train doesnt have a transmission.
They dont have a transmission in the sense that multiple gear ratios are switched in one order or another but there is still a transmission path of power from the motor to the wheels. (usually involving cogs)
There are currently no EV cars commerically available that have electric motors directly attached to the wheels (so that the motor is in the wheel hub).
And ZF also can make an electric motor of course.

EV's might turn out to be a hugely expansion of ZF's assets. The most innovative companies will probably benefit the most of a transition to ev's, and ZF is pretty innovative
For instance they started the trend of high # geargearratio gearboxes where multiple ratio's are used in series to get to one final ratio. That way of designing led other manufacturers to copy ZF.
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers | Sachs performance clutch
Appreciate 2
beanbaguk203.50
clee1982153.00

      04-12-2019, 12:31 PM   #24
beanbaguk
Captain
beanbaguk's Avatar
Spain
204
Rep
761
Posts

Drives: BMW G30 520d M-Sport
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Costa del Sol

iTrader: (0)

And more from ZF regarding EV and their commitment to the technology.

https://www.zf.com/products/en/cars/home/cars.html

In short, they don't just build transmissions!
__________________
Current car: 2017 BMW G30 520d M-Sport, BMW F46 218d Grand Tourer
Previous cars: 1989 BMW E30 316i, 1998 BMW E36 323i Coupe M Sport, 2009 BMW E87 116d, 2013 BMW F31 320d M-Sport
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2019, 01:13 PM   #25
Racer20
Captain
United_States
650
Rep
980
Posts

Drives: F80 M3, 228i THP, E46 ZHP
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by duky View Post
I wonder why BMW doesnt just buy ZF. I'm sure it has been considered! They seem to make really awesome transmissions but perhaps having that as an exclusive is not a differentiator enough with most customers to make the ROI make sense.
All the automakers used to have their own in-house parts makers that they are still trying to divest. US OEM's divested a decade ago, in japan and Europe they are doing it more slowly.

It's not economical to distract from their core business.
__________________
2015 M3, 2005 330i ZHP, 2015 228i 6MT Track Handling Pack, 2007 M Coupe (Sold)
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2019, 01:17 PM   #26
Racer20
Captain
United_States
650
Rep
980
Posts

Drives: F80 M3, 228i THP, E46 ZHP
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
wonder what's ZF going to do when car switch to electric in big numbers (i.e. no transmission)
ZF is well poised to succeed regardless of propulsion technology. They make chassis, drivetrain, electronics, and system components that will apply to EV's as well.
__________________
2015 M3, 2005 330i ZHP, 2015 228i 6MT Track Handling Pack, 2007 M Coupe (Sold)
Appreciate 3
mkoesel4534.50
clee1982153.00

      04-12-2019, 01:22 PM   #27
BM dnobagaV
BM dnobagaV
BM dnobagaV's Avatar
United_States
290
Rep
384
Posts

Drives: 2010 BMW 528i
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Dreamville

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUFCbmwbear View Post
Strong anti Monopoly laws maybe?
Those don't exist
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2019, 02:26 PM   #28
beanbaguk
Captain
beanbaguk's Avatar
Spain
204
Rep
761
Posts

Drives: BMW G30 520d M-Sport
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Costa del Sol

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM dnobagaV View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUFCbmwbear View Post
Strong anti Monopoly laws maybe?
Those don't exist
You're not from Europe, are you?
__________________
Current car: 2017 BMW G30 520d M-Sport, BMW F46 218d Grand Tourer
Previous cars: 1989 BMW E30 316i, 1998 BMW E36 323i Coupe M Sport, 2009 BMW E87 116d, 2013 BMW F31 320d M-Sport
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2019, 02:39 PM   #29
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
1148
Rep
2,180
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

I think he means to say that they're monopoly laws, not anti monopoly laws.
But his post initially started me thinking too (and I don't know what the correct syntaxis is in this case)
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers | Sachs performance clutch
Appreciate 1
beanbaguk203.50

      04-12-2019, 04:38 PM   #30
upsidedownfunnel
Major
United_States
882
Rep
1,366
Posts

Drives: 2014 335i
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Irvine, CA

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2014 BMW 335i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Ok I didnt know that. But VAG also builds lots of their own transmissions afaik in multiple factories in spain, germany, china... (something that bmw completely doesnt).

But of course volkswagen has been using zf clutches since prehistoric times so although the gearbox may come from another manufacturer, there isnt a volkswagen anywhere that is free from ZF parts
While I don't doubt that, the VW DSGs are BorgWarner designs licensed by VW. Much like how Chrysler makes the 845RE transmission which is a licensed version of the ZF 8HP. In America, at least, that covers most of their transmissions. Some older VW automatic transmissions were made by Renault. Maybe they still make their manual transmission?
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2019, 04:45 PM   #31
rabbit1986
Registered
2
Rep
4
Posts

Drives: 2005 M3, 2016 D3 biturbo
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Have you guys ever tested a Mercedes latest gen 9 gear gearbox ? I drive an Alpina D3 (F31), which seems to have quite a good version of the all know ZF8, but still I find that Mercedes box better.

Just curious about what you guys think.
Appreciate 1
rilla1.00

      04-12-2019, 04:55 PM   #32
themnmd
Lieutenant
themnmd's Avatar
United_States
211
Rep
402
Posts

Drives: 2014 M235i
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: San Rafael CA

iTrader: (0)

Sounds like the push is on to kill all cars running on dead dinosaurs
Appreciate 2
Powaup1071.50

      04-12-2019, 07:04 PM   #33
Powaup
Brigadier General
Powaup's Avatar
United_States
1072
Rep
3,636
Posts

Drives: M235i
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 BMW M4  [5.00]
Has the zf8 transmission improved since 2016?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2019, 07:11 PM   #34
SleepingBMW
Second Lieutenant
United_States
98
Rep
213
Posts

Drives: 135i
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Midwest

iTrader: (0)

Well it makes sense. BMW has always had getrag and ZF transmissions but some penny pincher is probably patting himself on the back for this.

ONE transmission for nearly every vehicle in the bmw like up. M car, SUV, hybrid, 340i. This means BMW is able to place one big order and get a big price drop per transmission.

The cost is you now have ZF8s in every car. NO DCT. No manual. And I'll remind everyone that if the Getrag SMG unit had a modern computer it would be faster than anything on the market.

Yet, BMW costs go up and parts and labor go down
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2019, 09:02 PM   #35
Bowser330
Lieutenant Colonel
215
Rep
1,517
Posts

Drives: i3 REX
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Socal

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
wonder what's ZF going to do when car switch to electric in big numbers (i.e. no transmission)
That is exactly why bmw made its biggest order with ZF And partially why they went away from dcts even on their M vehicles.They both have an incentive to keep transmissions and engines, both of their bread and butter. They have dumped millions into r&d for engines and cars designed around them and that possibly hasn't completely amortized off the books yet.
Appreciate 0
      04-13-2019, 01:54 AM   #36
dappercivility
Private
dappercivility's Avatar
27
Rep
62
Posts

Drives: G30 MSPT
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Singapore

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by duky View Post
I wonder why BMW doesnt just buy ZF. I'm sure it has been considered! They seem to make really awesome transmissions but perhaps having that as an exclusive is not a differentiator enough with most customers to make the ROI make sense.
Trend of shifting to EV/Hybrid technologies, it made sense that bmw collaborate with toyota as they have extensive experience in automotive ev/hybrid technology and as for ZF, there are anti competition laws and also the huge capital required for buying ZF just doesnt make financial sense for bmw to acquire. Outsourcing seems to be the trend these days on cost cutting and reducing resource draining liabilities.
__________________
Completely Stock G30 540i
Appreciate 0
      04-13-2019, 07:05 AM   #37
Igor_M5
Touring Savant
Igor_M5's Avatar
United_States
741
Rep
1,190
Posts

Drives: Many, BMW.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York City

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
Let's all chip in and buy whatever is left of GETRAG! Bring back DCT and Manuals !
Appreciate 6
10"1504.00
RPiM52294.50
F85MTuNED114.50
AD1871.50
kyrix1st351.00

      04-13-2019, 07:15 AM   #38
10"
Captain
10"'s Avatar
1504
Rep
942
Posts

Drives: orange BMW 1M.
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Brooklyn

iTrader: (0)

Such crappy gearboxes. Just feel like a traditional torque converter slushbox. Just programmed to artificially feel "sporty" but feel like junk to me. Have driven them in many different cars...

I don't take any car with a ZF gearbox seriously...
__________________
don't read this. too late...
Appreciate 2
RPiM52294.50
Poochie1780.50

      04-13-2019, 07:42 AM   #39
CP911
Captain
United_States
545
Rep
848
Posts

Drives: '18 M240i 6-speed Coupe
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NW Indiana

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
Such crappy gearboxes. Just feel like a traditional torque converter slushbox. Just programmed to artificially feel "sporty" but feel like junk to me. Have driven them in many different cars...

I don't take any car with a ZF gearbox seriously...
Huh? Have you driven other torque-converter autos? There are none better than the ZF for all-around smoothness and consistency in all situations. It is a great compromise between refinement, reliability, # of gears, and "sporty" driving. The M235iR race car even uses it (in a different state of tune) and I don't think anyone driving that car would complain it is slow or not sporty enough. You either don't know what you're talking about or just trolling hard. Sure, it's no DCT or manual (either of which are my preference in a real sports car), but there is no denying the vast majority of people on the public roads will be best served by the ZF 8-speed.

I first realized how good it was when cross-shopping the latest Audi A4 and Allroad a few years ago. The Allroad drove so much better with the ZF compared to the A4 with the dual-clutch.
Appreciate 2
themnmd211.00
F15GorDe208.00

      04-13-2019, 08:42 AM   #40
BigT
Private
Switzerland
42
Rep
87
Posts

Drives: I12 i8 Coupe / I01 i3 60Ah Rex
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Zurich

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
ZF is heavily involved in the development of electric drive trains.
And its a myth that an electric drive train doesnt have a transmission.
They dont have a transmission in the sense that multiple gear ratios are switched in one order or another but there is still a transmission path of power from the motor to the wheels. (usually involving cogs)
There are currently no EV cars commerically available that have electric motors directly attached to the wheels (so that the motor is in the wheel hub).
And ZF also can make an electric motor of course.

EV's might turn out to be a hugely expansion of ZF's assets. The most innovative companies will probably benefit the most of a transition to ev's, and ZF is pretty innovative
...
Exactly.
And they already aquired companies focused on autonomus driving.
We will not see a disruptive change of technologies but a constant shift over the next decades. The demand will not be lesser but different. There will be still enough if not even more work to do.
Appreciate 0
      04-13-2019, 09:34 AM   #41
SteveinArizona
Major
United_States
421
Rep
1,115
Posts

Drives: BMW 530e
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Greater Phoenix

iTrader: (0)

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...f-eight-speed/
Appreciate 0
      04-13-2019, 04:18 PM   #42
10"
Captain
10"'s Avatar
1504
Rep
942
Posts

Drives: orange BMW 1M.
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Brooklyn

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
Huh? Have you driven other torque-converter autos? There are none better than the ZF for all-around smoothness and consistency in all situations. It is a great compromise between refinement, reliability, # of gears, and "sporty" driving. The M235iR race car even uses it (in a different state of tune) and I don't think anyone driving that car would complain it is slow or not sporty enough. You either don't know what you're talking about or just trolling hard. Sure, it's no DCT or manual (either of which are my preference in a real sports car), but there is no denying the vast majority of people on the public roads will be best served by the ZF 8-speed.

I first realized how good it was when cross-shopping the latest Audi A4 and Allroad a few years ago. The Allroad drove so much better with the ZF compared to the A4 with the dual-clutch.
plenty. it feels the same with fancy software. not for me, man.

they use these gearboxes because they are (A) cheap and (B) they don't break. otherwise they are total trash when it comes to driving enjoyment or sensation......

i'm not a huge fan of DCTs but DCTs feel night and day more fun than these ZF gearboxes.

Give me a 'slow' manual any day of the week. If i wanted to drive a torque converted slush box i'd get a 1980s Lincoln. Has no place in a modern performance car.

the reason these gearboxes don't matter anymore is because the vast majority (80%) of current "enthusiasts" don't care about the details. They lease cars for 3 years and then just buy another one. I come from the philosophy that you buy the most kickass car you can and KEEP THAT FOR YEARS and enjoy the hell out of it. Not these garage princesses that get paint protection and waxing for 80% of their time with their owners, don't get driven, come with all sorts of tech options but a crappy ZF gearbox----and then get sold to the next sucker who brags to people about his 0-60 'pull'. *pat on the back*
__________________
don't read this. too late...
Appreciate 2
Poochie1780.50
AD1871.50

      04-13-2019, 08:56 PM   #43
cbertels
Lieutenant
cbertels's Avatar
495
Rep
400
Posts

Drives: M3 YMB-SS
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Orlando

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
I come from the philosophy that you buy the most kickass car you can and KEEP THAT FOR YEARS and enjoy the hell out of it. Not these garage princesses that get paint protection and waxing for 80% of their time with their owners, don't get driven, come with all sorts of tech options but a crappy ZF gearbox----and then get sold to the next sucker who brags to people about his 0-60 'pull'. *pat on the back*

I'm with that!!
Appreciate 0
      04-13-2019, 09:38 PM   #44
aozer
Lieutenant
aozer's Avatar
730
Rep
518
Posts

Drives: M235i
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
wonder what's ZF going to do when car switch to electric in big numbers (i.e. no transmission)
ZF is involved with much more than just transmissions. They are one of our customers and we make mmWave radar.
Appreciate 1
clee1982153.00

Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:29 AM.




g20
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST