[sdengineer]

Ever read those articles "best cities in the US", and they list the worst backwater places? Same deal here. They create a bunch of criteria, applying a weighting to each criteria. Some criteria are extremely subjective. The criteria and weightings are tuned to make the typical reader feel good. The typical reader lives in a less desirable area and drives a less desirable vehicle. And that gets advertising dollars via more page reads/hits.

Look, these people are not competent. See this article: https://www.caranddriver.com/ranking...ns/performance

40% of the list consists of 2-door coupes.

Just don't read this drivel.

[Humdizzle]

they are a pretty well respected magazine. just depends on what you want in a car. M cars try to straddle luxury and performance, and so are 'just ok' at both. there's a lot of compromises that have to be made to please everyone. and keep costs down.

if you want a car that does both thats fine though.

even EVO mag had the M4CSL ranked behind the toyota gt86 on their car of the year rankings .

[Trevorr]

Originally Posted by sdengineer

Ever read those articles "best cities in the US", and they list the worst backwater places? Same deal here. They create a bunch of criteria, applying a weighting to each criteria. Some criteria are extremely subjective. The criteria and weightings are tuned to make the typical reader feel good. The typical reader lives in a less desirable area and drives a less desirable vehicle. And that gets advertising dollars via more page reads/hits.

Look, these people are not competent. See this article: https://www.caranddriver.com/ranking...ns/performance

40% of the list consists of 2-door coupes.

Just don't read this drivel.

A lot of members in this thread are calling out Car and Driver but have yet to actually list why the M3 is better than any of the cars that were rated ahead of the M3.

[sdengineer]

Originally Posted by Trevorr

A lot of members in this thread are calling out Car and Driver but have yet to actually list why the M3 is better than any of the cars that were rated ahead of the M3.

Why would M3 owners waste their time trying to explain how these cars are better than a Civic or a Hyundai Elantra? I'm sure there is some weighted parametric equation one could craft where "value" or perf-per-$ dominates thus showing that these buzz-boxes are "better", but in the end you are getting a lot more "car" with an M3 and you pay for it.

Same with houses. You can find a house that is $500/sq-ft, but its probably not "better" than a $2000/sq-ft home when you look at the overall experience.

The reality is that the M3 is a very reasonably priced car for what you get. Its all a question of what you actually value.

[sdengineer]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

they are a pretty well respected magazine. just depends on what you want in a car. M cars try to straddle luxury and performance, and so are 'just ok' at both. there's a lot of compromises that have to be made to please everyone. and keep costs down.

if you want a car that does both thats fine though.

even EVO mag had the M4CSL ranked behind the toyota gt86 on their car of the year rankings .

C&D is a relic of the past. How does a respectable "magazine" create articles about the best sport sedans where 40% of the list is comprised of 2-door coupes? They simply don't have the budget to do things well. It has become a "feel good" website just like the "best places to live" articles. Confirmation bias for the masses. It is not about being objective in regard to the superiority of one vehicle vs another. Apparently a civic is superior to an M3 or Porsche Taycan. In what objective reality, can this be true?

[Mike02z]

Honestly, if C&D put the G80/82 at the top of their list I’d have to question my decision to own one😉

[Forzanerazzurri]

You guys showing some thin skin here. The civil and Elantra n are both spectacular cars in their segment. It's all relative.

[Trevorr]

Originally Posted by sdengineer

C&D is a relic of the past. How does a respectable "magazine" create articles about the best sport sedans where 40% of the list is comprised of 2-door coupes? They simply don't have the budget to do things well. It has become a "feel good" website just like the "best places to live" articles. Confirmation bias for the masses. It is not about being objective in regard to the superiority of one vehicle vs another. Apparently a civic is superior to an M3 or Porsche Taycan. In what objective reality, can this be true?

C/D didn't say the M3 was a bad car. It ranked it 9/10.

Lets take the Quadrifoglio for example. Yeah the M3 is faster but the quadrifoglio is probably a much more fun and engaging car to drive around a track. Whereas the M3 just isn't as engaging.

Have you ever driven a civic type R? Its a lightweight 4 door car that can zip around a track. The M cars of the past were traditionally relatively lightweight cars that you could drive on the backroads or on a track but now, the M cars have gotten significantly heavier because of the industry emphasis on 0-60 times so they add AWD.

You claim confirmation bias, but you are biased as well and your statement reflects that.

[sdengineer]

Originally Posted by Trevorr

C/D didn't say the M3 was a bad car. It ranked it 9/10.

Lets take the Quadrifoglio for example. Yeah the M3 is faster but the quadrifoglio is probably a much more fun and engaging car to drive around a track. Whereas the M3 just isn't as engaging.

Have you ever driven a civic type R? Its a lightweight 4 door car that can zip around a track. The M cars of the past were traditionally relatively lightweight cars that you could drive on the backroads or on a track but now, the M cars have gotten significantly heavier because of the industry emphasis on 0-60 times so they add AWD.

You claim confirmation bias, but you are biased as well and your statement reflects that.

I wasn't referring to the Quadrifoglio comparison. At that level, the cars may be close enough where it really comes down to preference. I considered the Quadrifoglio, but went with the M3 because of reliability concerns. At least I can rationally cross-shop such cars.

The issue is more about the methodology which is completely opaque and likely based on a weighted function of criteria, many of which are very subjective, e.g., "value" - how do you objectively measure that.

Ok, so let me ask you. If I offered you an G80 M3 or a Civic Type R for free and all expenses paid for the life of the car, which would you take? I suspect (and I may be totally wrong about what you value), that you would pick the M3 because it is a superior vehicle. When I say "superior vehicle" I mean in the sense of what a vehicle's purpose is ultimately.

Now if you say the Civic is better value for money, then I am with you. Doesn't make it a better car though.

This is generally an absurd conversation and shame on me for even engaging in it. No one who is shopping for a civic is even considering an M3 and vice versa. Maybe an M3 owner may get the civic as a DD or something, but it is highly improbable that one would choose a civic over an M3 based on this poorly constructed C&D article.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by sdengineer

C&D is a relic of the past. How does a respectable "magazine" create articles about the best sport sedans where 40% of the list is comprised of 2-door coupes? They simply don't have the budget to do things well. It has become a "feel good" website just like the "best places to live" articles. Confirmation bias for the masses. It is not about being objective in regard to the superiority of one vehicle vs another. Apparently a civic is superior to an M3 or Porsche Taycan. In what objective reality, can this be true?

people have all sorts of criteria for whats 'better'. The civic weighs way less than the taycan and like 800 pounds less than a g80 cx. it has more engaging steering and manual trans. i owned a toyota 86 and 700hp r35 GTR at the same time... and i found myself grabbing the keys to 86 more often because it was just more fun to drive. mostly for the same reasons i just mentioned. a car can be both technically brilliant, but at the same time have zero emotion.

i just watched chris harris' recent review on the new GR86. at the end he says "people would always ask me, if you couldn't afford a gt3 what would you buy? whats the next best thing? And I would usually say get an M2... but now i think you have to include the 86 in that convo and possibly above it".

so even he's comparing a 30k toyota to a 65k g87 m2.

and i dont mean to completely knock the G series. if i had a long work commute, liked to road trip, wanted less nvh and better stereo, etc... the m2/m3 is a way more refined experience than something like a 86, civic type r, or cayman.

[565565]

Once upon a time the E92 M3 could win in a comparo against a GT-R and a 911 Turbo.

http://https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a15142828/2008-bmw-m3-vs-2009-nissan-gt-r-vs-2008-porsche-911-turbo-comparison-tests/

Back then BMW fan boys would take Car and Drivers word as gospel. Reviews like that would get posted on forums, and every fanboy would use it to justify their purchase. Now when the shoe is on the other foot these rankings are suddenly trash?

The truth is BMW has lost its way in terms of driver involvement and their reviews from enthusiast magazines reflect that.

The G80 is a numbers beast, but there is more to an involving driver's car than just numbers, or else everyone should be driving a Model S Plaid.

Ironically BMW sales are better than ever now because they realized that driving involvement wins comparison tests, but doesn't sell cars. Solid build quality and reliability sells cars, and on that front BMW is much improved.

So ironically BMW now loses in Car and Driver but wins in Consumer Reports rankings.

[MT6]

Originally Posted by Jax327

3 Hondas in the top 4 while the m3 is at 9?? Not sure I can’t take this seriously ha.

https://www.caranddriver.com/ranking...ts-cars/4-door

C&D has history of favoring Hondas. Sometimes I scratch my head on why a FWD Prelude is in a comparison test against higher priced RWD German cars with 6 Cylinder engines.

Fun to drive was C&Ds response…that some Hondas are

[BryanCO]

It’s just entertainment.

C&D has the Audi S7 at #7 on the Best 4 Door Sports cars list (if there is really such a thing as a four door sports car) and #10 on the Best Premium Sports Sedans list… For entertainment purposes only.

[M4Tejas]

Under the table money. $$$

[ChrisM4]

Determine what’s best for you based on your criteria…not magazine reviews.

I’ve owned and modified tons of performance cars and from an acceleration, handling, braking, luxury, interior quality, all weather capability perspective my ‘24 M4 comp X-Drive is perfect for my needs.

The only thing that comes close is a 911 C4S and that is too cramped in the rear seats for my use case and is about $50K more in Canada.

[Trevorr]

Originally Posted by 565565

Once upon a time the E92 M3 could win in a comparo against a GT-R and a 911 Turbo.

http://https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a15142828/2008-bmw-m3-vs-2009-nissan-gt-r-vs-2008-porsche-911-turbo-comparison-tests/

Back then BMW fan boys would take Car and Drivers word as gospel. Reviews like that would get posted on forums, and every fanboy would use it to justify their purchase. Now when the shoe is on the other foot these rankings are suddenly trash?

The truth is BMW has lost its way in terms of driver involvement and their reviews from enthusiast magazines reflect that.

The G80 is a numbers beast, but there is more to an involving driver's car than just numbers, or else everyone should be driving a Model S Plaid.

Ironically BMW sales are better than ever now because they realized that driving involvement wins comparison tests, but doesn't sell cars. Solid build quality and reliability sells cars, and on that front BMW is much improved.

So ironically BMW now loses in Car and Driver but wins in Consumer Reports rankings.

Its funny because the m3 is the "slower car" in that comparison but got first place. But the M3 is the lightest of the bunch and if anyone reads the review, it's all about engagement and variables beyond 0-60 times.

They sacrificed driver involvement by including an AWD system IMO. That and making the M cars too heavy for the sake of luxury/features. But everyone and their brother is on the 0-60, 1/4 time and technology train so BMW is following the trend.

On the flip side, not everyone track's their car. Its expensive! I track regularly and its a few thousand per year just to get on a track. So naturally, only a small percentage of people track their M3. C/D however, includes track driving with all reviews.

Sadly, I think M cars being a true driver's car is coming to a close. The new M2 weighs how much again?

[BryanCO]

Originally Posted by Trevorr

Its funny because the m3 is the "slower car" in that comparison but got first place. But the M3 is the lightest of the bunch and if anyone reads the review, it's all about engagement and variables beyond 0-60 times.

They sacrificed driver involvement by including an AWD system IMO. That and making the M cars too heavy for the sake of luxury/features. But everyone and their brother is on the 0-60, 1/4 time and technology train so BMW is following the trend.

On the flip side, not everyone track's their car. Its expensive! I track regularly and its a few thousand per year just to get on a track. So naturally, only a small percentage of people track their M3. C/D however, includes track driving with all reviews.

Sadly, I think M cars being a true driver's car is coming to a close. The new M2 weighs how much again?

Nonsense. The M3 has been and continues to be a sports sedan and certainly always in the conversation for the top sports sedan. What is a sports sedan has certainly evolved as performance and technology has evolved. Any buyer desires have evolved. Then throw in regulations, emissions, etc.

Few owners track these cars. Reviewers track cars because it gets people to consume their reviews and the track is where they can evaluate the cars full performance.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by Trevorr

They sacrificed driver involvement by including an AWD system IMO. That and making the M cars too heavy for the sake of luxury/features.

Sadly, I think M cars being a true driver's car is coming to a close. The new M2 weighs how much again?

How much does your, 2-door, no frills, and RWD, GT500 weigh?

[Trevorr]

Originally Posted by mirob

How much does your, 2-door, no frills, and RWD, GT500 weigh?

Probably less than my 24 m3 Xdrive.

Even though its heavy, it makes up for the weight with the DCT, better turn in with the carbon fiber wheels, carbon fiber wing providing massive downforce and magneride suspension. All stock from the factory.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by Trevorr

Probably less than my 24 m3 Xdrive.

Even though its heavy, it makes up for the weight with the DCT, better turn in with the carbon fiber wheels, carbon fiber wing providing massive downforce and magneride suspension. All stock from the factory.

Not according to any advertised numbers. The GT500 is a heavy fella. Of course, if you have both you have a perfect opportunity to go have them both weighed with the same amount of gas in each and disprove all that advertising. Let us know what happens.

[Trevorr]

Originally Posted by bri1042

Not according to any advertised numbers. The GT500 is a heavy fella. Of course, if you have both you have a perfect opportunity to go have them both weighed with the same amount of gas in each and disprove all that advertising. Let us know what happens.

Advertised numbers that are all over the internet are for a base model GT500.

I have the Carbon Fiber Track Pack GT500.

There are no rear seats, recaros are standard with the track pack, the wheels are carbon fiber which are probably about 20 lbs lighter at each corner. Different springs.

https://lmr.com/products/what-is-a-c...ack-2020-gt500

They weighed theirs at 3,947 with 3/4 of a tank.

Per BMW, my m3 weighs 3,990...

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by BryanCO

Nonsense. The M3 has been and continues to be a sports sedan and certainly always in the conversation for the top sports sedan. What is a sports sedan has certainly evolved as performance and technology has evolved. Any buyer desires have evolved. Then throw in regulations, emissions, etc.

Few owners track these cars. Reviewers track cars because it gets people to consume their reviews and the track is where they can evaluate the cars full performance.

man i hope no one here complains about the 5400 lb M5 lmao