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      09-29-2018, 10:15 AM   #111
evanescent03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
There are indeed some great vehicles out there that are still available with a manual transmission.

But, as I mentioned in another thread recently, these are all coupes. As of the end of next month when the F30/F80 officially go out of production, there will be *zero* sedans left in the US with a manual transmission paired to an engine with more than four cylinders and more than ~300hp. The only one with more than 300hp, the Subaru WRX STi, has just 310hp and is really the last one left that could be called a performance sedan. The rest are bargain sub-compact, compact or in a couple cases, family-sized sedans. Oh, and the new Genesis G70 with the four cylinder engine only and the upcoming new Jetta GLI.
Thanks for combining info from the two threads!
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      09-29-2018, 09:59 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
There are indeed some great vehicles out there that are still available with a manual transmission.

But, as I mentioned in another thread recently, these are all coupes. As of the end of next month when the F30/F80 officially go out of production, there will be *zero* sedans left in the US with a manual transmission paired to an engine with more than four cylinders and more than ~300hp. The only one with more than 300hp, the Subaru WRX STi, has just 310hp and is really the last one left that could be called a performance sedan. The rest are bargain sub-compact, compact or in a couple cases, family-sized sedans. Oh, and the new Genesis G70 with the four cylinder engine only and the upcoming new Jetta GLI.

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Originally Posted by evanescent03 View Post
Don't forget US brands. 6MT in the Camaro SS 1LE makes the 6MT in the F80 feel like a delicate flower. Also a corvette or mustang can be had in manual. Sure, these cars aren't for everyone, but they are surprisingly good to drive. Materials, image/stereotypes, etc are things you need to overlook, but if you do... they are capable machines.

Oh and don't forget MX-5/Miata, 370Z, civic type R, Focus RS, Fiesta ST, BRZ/GT86/FRS... some decent cars in that bunch too.

7% is still a good chunk of sales, seems weird to risk losing all those customers.
Most miss that this is the reality: The manual transmission is a low take rate option that is detrimental to both performance and efficiency. It has become a toy, In premium vehicles it exists purely for the enjoyment of a small (but vocal) group of owners who are willing to take a less capable vehicle because of the "feel". That is fine by me they just have to vote with their wallets that the development dollars should be spent there vs on other options.
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      10-02-2018, 03:23 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
Most miss that this is the reality: The manual transmission is a low take rate option that is detrimental to both performance and efficiency. It has become a toy, In premium vehicles it exists purely for the enjoyment of a small (but vocal) group of owners who are willing to take a less capable vehicle because of the "feel". That is fine by me they just have to vote with their wallets that the development dollars should be spent there vs on other options.
You hit the nail on the head, a M spec vehicle is all about higher performance. The current F90 with MxDrive was a animal on the Nürburgring Nordschleife, especially in the rain, as I was in the F90 training group and we lapped the 2 wheel drive M4's during full laps. The BMW M engineers hinted to me that this coming, automatic MxDrive, for the next G80 (even DCT is history). Why give up performance for a manual, especially improved fuel consummation as this was the reasoning behind the electrical steering for the F80's.

I highly doubt the 6MT diehards walking with their wallets will be felt by BMW AG/BMW NA. The M2 is a different story as BMW AG is very aware of the high 6MT uptake for the US market.
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      10-02-2018, 04:06 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
Most miss that this is the reality: The manual transmission is a low take rate option that is detrimental to both performance and efficiency. It has become a toy, In premium vehicles it exists purely for the enjoyment of a small (but vocal) group of owners who are willing to take a less capable vehicle because of the "feel". That is fine by me they just have to vote with their wallets that the development dollars should be spent there vs on other options.
What exactly is the reality?

Fundamentally, a car exists to get you from Point A to B and most everything else beyond that (not just the type of transmission) exists for enjoyment whilst you move from A to B. So the reality is the sports performance cars like M cars are all toys, not just the (manual) transmission.

And the only thing "less capable" about manuals vs. auto is the former may take you a tad longer to get to B. This tad is measured in seconds or split seconds, in which the reality is this time difference is immaterial unless you're racing.

The only real reality I see is in your last sentence about voting with the wallet. Yes, manual cars have become an insignificant minority but I don't see anyone really denying that.
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      10-02-2018, 04:15 PM   #115
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Just looked at the new G20 release photos of the interior, and (I hope this isn't reality) it doesn't seem like there's much space to physically have a manual transmission shifter in the middle console. The iDrive takes up a big chunk of the space, where as in the current F8X platform the iDrive is far enough to the right that it can accommodate a manual shifter OR a DCT without needing to modify where the iDrive sits.
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      10-02-2018, 08:44 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Swee View Post
Just looked at the new G20 release photos of the interior, and (I hope this isn't reality) it doesn't seem like there's much space to physically have a manual transmission shifter in the middle console. The iDrive takes up a big chunk of the space, where as in the current F8X platform the iDrive is far enough to the right that it can accommodate a manual shifter OR a DCT without needing to modify where the iDrive sits.
You can build a 320d with a MT on BMW's German and UK sites to see how a stick is implemented in that console. So there's hope for us still.
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      10-02-2018, 09:17 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xlover View Post
Most miss that this is the reality: The manual transmission is a low take rate option that is detrimental to both performance and efficiency. It has become a toy, In premium vehicles it exists purely for the enjoyment of a small (but vocal) group of owners who are willing to take a less capable vehicle because of the "feel". That is fine by me they just have to vote with their wallets that the development dollars should be spent there vs on other options.
What exactly is the reality?

Fundamentally, a car exists to get you from Point A to B and most everything else beyond that (not just the type of transmission) exists for enjoyment whilst you move from A to B. So the reality is the sports performance cars like M cars are all toys, not just the (manual) transmission.

And the only thing "less capable" about manuals vs. auto is the former may take you a tad longer to get to B. This tad is measured in seconds or split seconds, in which the reality is this time difference is immaterial unless you're racing.

The only real reality I see is in your last sentence about voting with the wallet. Yes, manual cars have become an insignificant minority but I don't see anyone really denying that.
So you don't see the manual experience as materially different than auto??? You cant have it both ways.

I am all for bmw producing 6mt if the take rate is there for the toy transmission. But if you want it be sure to vote with your wallet.

In the M3/m4 owners in the current gen are voting yes but in the 340/330 they are voting no thanks. Most of the 6mt buyers I encounter (obviously an anecdotal evaluation) either buy new once in a great while or secondhand which means their vote doesn't count. If you want manuals get everyone you know on the new every 3 leasing strategy.
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      10-05-2018, 11:39 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Swee View Post
This may be some encouraging news from a C&D article. Quote from the M chief van Meel:

"The BMW M2 Competition still has the manual for a reason, because in the U.S. we have more than a 50 percent take rate on manual transmissions for the M2," he said. "Buyers vote with their wallets for manual transmissions. Now, being an engineer, I would say from a rational standpoint that even though the manual gearbox is lighter than an automated gearbox, it uses more fuel and is slower, so it doesn't really make sense . . . But from the emotional standpoint, a lot of customers say, 'I don't care, I want to have one.' As long as we have these take rates on M2, and also the M3 and M4, we're going to offer manuals, because we listen to our customers. Even though as an engineer I'd say we don't necessarily need one. If demand is so high, then why not fulfill it?"

Original thread: https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1519913
van meel isn't with bmw anymore so what he said is just what he said lol, also makes sense to offer it on the m2 as take rate is 50 % on m3/m4 its more like maybe 15%
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      10-05-2018, 06:25 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moomeacow View Post
van meel isn't with bmw anymore so what he said is just what he said lol, also makes sense to offer it on the m2 as take rate is 50 % on m3/m4 its more like maybe 15%
Doing our part here...bought an M2 Competition last week with 6MT.
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