[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by agentrnge

Another huge difference is the impact of a torque converter. Even with fully "manual" gear selection with the paddle-shifter, will the drive train be locked or will it continuously wiggle about with the torque converter slipping and grabbing and locking and such?

That's a good point (although we are drifting a bit from the topic), and I don't know the answer to your question. What I do know is that contemporary automatics like the latest ZF8 are said to be "very good" and "nearly equivalent in every way" when compared to a DCT. I haven't verified this myself.

However, as someone who migrated away from manual transmissions a decade ago, I can say that the M DCT was a huge factor in that decision. Had the alternate choice been to a slush box, I may not have switched. I am not thrilled by the fact that the ZF8 is (according to rumor) set to take over for the DCT in the next M3/M4 like it has in the M5 (and will also in the upcoming M8, and more than likely the next generation M2 as well).

But what if the ratio change from 5th to 6th ( or have a 7th speed?) was more significant to make 6th more of a high speed cruising only gear with a very low overall ratio to match that of the 8 speed auto, would cruising MPG then be the same with the manual?

Again, I don't know the answer. But your mention of ratio spread is indeed on target, as that is what has motivated the move to transmissions with higher number of available ratios. There is a limit to how much distance can between any two ratios due to the way an engine delivers power and the tradeoffs you make with efficiency and so forth. I don't know the details of that as far as BMW's engines - I'm sure it becomes complex quickly. But at any rate, a planetary transmission can scale easier (more cheaply, more space efficiently, more mass efficiently) than a manual or DCT because of the compactness and versatility of the planetary gear sets. Mercedes has taken advantage of this by using clutch packs with a planetary box so they get the best of both words - no slush, and nine ratios. I believe the idea behind ZF and others keeping the torque converter is as you had suggested - they use lock-up to get clutched-gearbox-like power delivery while retaining the low RPM smoothness of the torque converter.

[RSnic]

I know that some will label me a dinosaur, BUT I have and always will enjoy driving a car with a manual transmission. I had to special order my current car and quite honestly, I accept that as the "price to pay" for getting a manual transmission.

Thing that I find most hard to understand is why BMW, calling the 3 series, the ultimate driving, is all but eliminating manual transmission from the 2019 3 series. I understand that there is a cost to offer a 3 series manual transmission in the US -- the EPA and crash tests that must be done and submitted; and I also understand that manuals account for a very small percent of new 3 series sales. Having said that, however, it seems to me that BMW will still celar a profit if they offer manual in this country

I only hope that as the M340 is is finalized for the US, that BMW comes to its senses -- guess one lives in hope and dies in despair!

For what it's worth!!

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by RSnic

Having said that, however, it seems to me that BMW will still celar a profit if they offer manual in this country

I share your sympathies, but that is not the math. Each car built carries a margin contribution and there is an overall program profitability objective. BMW could spend additional investment for certifying another powertrain combination(s) (US cert manual with 4 or 6 cylinder or both). But, if capacity can already be filled with existing demand for automatics, the additional investment is purely a program profitability deterioration as manual trans units substitute for automatics - not incremental volume (variable cost of manual trans vs automatic is another factor to consider in substitution analysis), and may lower average margin. One would have to demonstrate incremental volume AND incremental production capacity AND that the margin associated offsets the incremental investment and plant operating costs for additional plant powertrain complexity AND that the incremental capacity is not better used for automatics (deciding that automatic free demand is already filled) to decide to add the US manual powertrain back to the mix.

[MT4life]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I share your sympathies, but that is not the math. Each car built carries a margin contribution and there is an overall program profitability objective. BMW could spend additional investment for certifying another powertrain combination(s) (US cert manual with 4 or 6 cylinder or both). But, if capacity can already be filled with existing demand for automatics, the additional investment is purely a program profitability deterioration as manual trans units substitute for automatics - not incremental volume (variable cost of manual trans vs automatic is another factor to consider in substitution analysis), and may lower average margin. One would have to demonstrate incremental volume AND incremental production capacity AND that the margin associated offsets the incremental investment and plant operating costs for additional plant powertrain complexity AND that the incremental capacity is not better used for automatics (deciding that automatic free demand is already filled) to decide to add the US manual powertrain back to the mix.

All that is true except g20 will be available with 6MT in other countries so no additional costs besides making it legal in USA

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by MT4life

All that is true except g20 will be available with 6MT in other countries so no additional costs besides making it legal in USA

Yes we get some MT models in the UK. But rapidly moving to only being available in the small engines and lower power outputs.

Historically MT was the cheap, economical option. AT was a high cost option. Over the past few years, the market for MT in larger engine models has dropped away, to the point something like a 550i MT would be virtually impossible to sell. I recall a new E60 550i MT with a superb spec', sitting on a dealer forecourt for months, until the price dropped to a stupidly cheap sum, before someone took it on. If it had been AT it would have been snapped up in days.

All the BMW diesels with 3.0 litre engines lost MT years ago. The UK F10 M5 5-series never had MT as an option. Shows how the market place is moving, when there are too few M5 drivers wanting MT, that it just never happened.

Even fewer drivers want MT these days, it's another chore to driving which many just don't want in their daily drivers.

BTW, I was driving MT for over 35 years before I bought into AT. I still enjoy a few hours now and again with MT in hire cars, but to be honest I find the 8-speed AT just as rewarding to drive. I can be as involved as much as I like, (paddles and/or shifter), or just leave it to do its thing when I want to relax.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by MT4life

All that is true except g20 will be available with 6MT in other countries so no additional costs besides making it legal in USA

That is not a minor effort. "Making it legal in the US" is millions to tens of millions considering the person, materials, and facility cost of building and crashing of multiple prototypes with that powertrain combination to U.S. FMVSS standards. Then, the emissions cert is added, although a more minor investment.

Also, the production mix already has baked in the rate for MT for the other countries. At this point, per my previous discussion, the issue is additional substitution for U.S. units of MT for AT builds or incremental production capacity, as they have no doubt developed a plan to fill their plant as is. That is where the business case gets more complex.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by MT4life

All that is true except g20 will be available with 6MT in other countries so no additional costs besides making it legal in USA

Those models won't be sold in the US though. The 330i, as well as the the upcoming M340i and 330e, won't have manual transmissions anywhere in the world.

I'm not sure if the 320i is being offered with a manual transmission, but even if it is, that model is not expected to be sold in the US. Instead, the new UKL-based 228i Grand Coupe is coming next year to take over the entry level BMW price point.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

Gear changes are overrated.

Add in the inability of many MT drivers to swap cogs smoothly...

I've sat with quite a few MT drivers and cringe. They ought to be driving AT, just to get a smooth drive.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

Gear changes are overrated.

Really?

"So no one told you life was going to be this way.
Your job's a joke, you're broke, you're love life's DOA.
It's like you're always stuck in second gear,
Well, it hasn't been your day, your week, your month, or even your year."

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Really?

...It's like you're always stuck in second gear...

Just to make it clear, he drives a Tesla Model 3. There is no second gear.

Indeed a vehicle with peak torque at zero RPM and thus no need for a multi-ratio transmission does possess a certain beauty of its own.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Just to make it clear, he drives a Tesla Model 3. There is no second gear.

Indeed a vehicle with peak torque at zero RPM and thus no need for a multi-ratio transmission does possess a certain beauty of its own.

Interesting...had a grand down as a Model 3 deposit for more than a year. Then, I started learning more about their design and production process and got my refund. They have very advanced battery/powertrain technology....body-in-white/interior design and overall final assembly.....another story, but off topic and not looking for flaming. Looking for more info about G20 PHEV or BEV....will make a nice garage pair with my 2 Series 6MT Track Package.

[Al Bundy's Dodge]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Add in the inability of many MT drivers to swap cogs smoothly...

I've sat with quite a few MT drivers and cringe. They ought to be driving AT, just to get a smooth drive.

But whiplash is part of the driving experience

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Really?

"So no one told you life was going to be this way.
Your job's a joke, you're broke, you're love life's DOA.
It's like you're always stuck in second gear,
Well, it hasn't been your day, your week, your month, or even your year."

You can't get stuck in second gear when your car has only one.

(Tesla should really promote the depression-reducing abilities of their cars.)

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Interesting...had a grand down as a Model 3 deposit for more than a year. Then, I started learning more about their design and production process and got my refund. They have very advanced battery/powertrain technology....body-in-white/interior design and overall final assembly.....another story, but off topic and not looking for flaming. Looking for more info about G20 PHEV or BEV....will make a nice garage pair with my 2 Series 6MT Track Package.

Compared to the last few cars I owned, my Model 3 is built like crap. I really feel bad about it every time I look at it. Right until the moment when I pull out of the driveway and fly away.

Still, I would love to go back to BMW. Unfortunately, I don't see a BEV that would match the Tesla's performance coming from BMW for a few more years - and who knows what Model Y will be capable of by then?

[moomeacow]

Originally Posted by Kevin1987

That low on the M3? No way. It's much higher than 6-7 percent. Somewhere I read 25%+. I don't think they are going to kill it for the M3.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/bm...issionsfor-now

"Which brings us to the good news: BMW buyers—particularly Americans—are still choosing stick shifts in sufficient numbers to justify continued development for certain models, specifically the M2, M3, and M4, as well as their successors."

"As long as we have these take rates on M2, and also the M3 and M4, we’re going to offer manuals, because we listen to our customers. Even though as an engineer I’d say we don’t necessarily need one. If demand is so high, then why not fulfill it?”

yea I read a different article that the take rates around 15-17 percent but still low, they already killed the manual for the g20 and if you look at the trans of that car doesn't look like theres even space to put in a manual. Also the guy who said that was mostly referring to the m2 as the take rate is 50 percent. Also he left bmw so what he said I would take with a grain of salt lol. Who knows maybe they move the idrive somewhere but it seems like manuals are getting killed.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by moomeacow

yea I read a different article that the take rates around 15-17 percent but still low, they already killed the manual for the g20 and if you look at the trans of that car doesn't look like theres even space to put in a manual. Also the guy who said that was mostly referring to the m2 as the take rate is 50 percent. Also he left bmw so what he said I would take with a grain of salt lol. Who knows maybe they move the idrive somewhere but it seems like manuals are getting killed.

Go to the UK configurator and you can see the iDrive controller is moved for manuals.

[________]

Originally Posted by 330indy

Oh well.
Time to move on

I appreciate you saying that, as I'm a die hard manual guy too, and that too is a deal breaker.

But if you're on the market for a non-M 3er, and now that you don't have a manual you're jumping ship, what other options do you have (ideally 3er competitors)?

Cheers

[G80indy]

Originally Posted by OnerDriver

But if you're on the market for a non-M 3er, and now that you don't have a manual you're jumping ship, what other options do you have (ideally 3er competitors)?

Honda Civic Type R

[G80indy]

Sorry not sorry- I just don't know how they can claim "ultimate driving machine" without a manual tranny. It's about driver Involvement.

That's OK
There are alternatives and it's not the end of the world!
First world problems

[SmoothStyle1]

Originally Posted by 330indy

Honda Civic Type R

The Civic Type R is one of the worst looking cars on the road.

[________]

Originally Posted by SmoothStyle1

The Civic Type R is one of the worst looking cars on the road.

And not one bit a competitor to the 3er.

[MT4life]

Originally Posted by 330indy

Sorry not sorry- I just don't know how they can claim "ultimate driving machine" without a manual tranny. It's about driver Involvement.

That's OK
There are alternatives and it's not the end of the world!
First world problems

No that's the the f-in problem. There are NO alternatives. That's it. We're done.
4 door sports sedan with 6 speed manual transmission from Japan or Europe with 6-cylinder ( f it, even 4 Turbocharged) engine. None! No, boy racer Type R and STI don't count.

If someone posts "that's what ///M cars are for..." I'm gonna throw a rock at them