[M3GymNut]

It's looking like the G80 M3 might stay auto while the G82 just gets the manual. By looking at the interior of the new M340i and by BMW's quote, don't know, getting bad vibes.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Aries326

I'm keeping my Z4 3.0si for this reason. My 9 y/o loves that car more than my E92 M3.

Hopefully the M4 will have a better exhaust note. That with MT, I may have to pick it up.

Those 3.0si engines were a gem.

Loved that motor !

[richb811]

Originally Posted by RowanBuds

Don't see myself buying a 2 door in the size of a 4 series, and the next sports car will have to be a manual. Maybe it's time to get a first-in-line deposit down for a M2CSL.

I wouldn't hedge on waiting for that Man trans on the CSL though. My bet is on it being DCT only.

[dmboone25]

I am glad that there seems to be a commitment to keep making the MT for the M4. Having the option on the transmission is a good thing, as many people (in the enthusiast market anyway) make a particular selection based upon very subjective and personal factors. Like others, I also wonder if the same will hold true for the M3, or if that was an inadvertent omission.

The interesting thing is that this guy said that the "M4 is our icon" - which is hilarious, given that the 4 series has been around for what, 5 years now?

Perhaps this is just semantics, but in my opinion, the company's icon has been and always will be the M3. In fact, if BMW is looking for a different moniker to continue that tradition, I would think that the M2 is a better contender than the M4, just given the size, pricing levels, and perceived luxury requirements of the 2er vs. the 4er.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by richb811

I wouldn't hedge on waiting for that Man trans on the CSL though. My bet is on it being DCT only.

I think it will depend on the approach that BMW decides to take. Will the car be an attempt to set lap time records, perhaps the best BMW time ever at the Ring for example? If so, then DCT will be the choice.

They might also take the 981 GT4 or 911R approach, which is that you can have a very fast and involving car that isn't quite as fast as it might otherwise be, because MT is the only choice.

You could make the argument that the M4 GTS was BMW's attempt to put out a track weapon that is designed to achieve the best possible lap times...which gives me hope that the M2 CSL could be MT only...

[cotmfk]

Good news for all.

[Brake_Late]

M4 Manual. CSL. Waiting.

Won't buy a 2er.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Brake_Late

M4 Manual. CSL. Waiting.

Won't buy a 2er.

I don't think this should evolve into an M2 vs. M4 debate...but the F87 platform is more conducive to an ultra-lightweight (relatively speaking, of course) and performance-based approach in my opinion.

I've driven the F82 many times, and own an F80 - these cars are awesome in their own rights, but are simply bigger than the ideal performance size to me. If I could shrink the F80 by ~20%, I would have the perfect car.

Is the preference for the M4 based upon interior options and/or quality of materials on the inside? I can understand if that's the case...but remember, those things would likely take a "hit" in an M4 CSL anyway...

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by Rupes

Not sure I understand.

If you have 82 M3s and only 2 are manuals, wouldn't it stand to reason that the manuals have nearly all been claimed and the DCT remains by a 40/1 ratio?

It's easier for a dealer to order a DCT, so they do. We still know a considerable amount of people (more than the 40/1 ratio above) will special order their BMW with a manual because it's the single most important option on their car.

That's true for me at least...

A disproportionate number of custom builds are manual because we cant buy a car off the lot.

I know 8 manual drivers (F8x) and all but one of us had to build out an allocation.

[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

A disproportionate number of custom builds are manual because we cant buy a car off the lot.

I know 8 manual drivers (F8x) and all but one of us had to build out an allocation.

[akkando]

Well they are discontinuing the DCT before the manual, but other brands still make them.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by akkando

Well they are discontinuing the DCT before the manual, but other brands still make them.

DCT isn't a real manual transmission. It's a variation of auto.

[Tacoma]

OK, so the R&T article quoted by the OP, is not only about manual vs. automatics. He also talks about AWD. In particular, note this excerpt from the R&T article:

Originally Posted by R&T Article:

So could the good-handling, lightweight all-wheel drive that Fröhlich worked so hard on find its way into the M3 and M4?

"Yes, I think so," says Fröhlich. "But especially in the M3, M4 side, I think there is still a big market for pure rear-wheel drive. M4 is our icon."

Fröhlich notes the possibility for numerous M4 derivatives. "I always really appreciated what Porsche did on the 911. They have whatever new derivative every month. I think we missed some opportunity not doing the same on M4. So I'm interested that, on M3, M4, we do more.

"This car will be rear-wheel drive," he said. "But we will have an all-wheel drive derivative too."

So it appears BMW will be offering many more "derivative" model G8x's beyond the CP's, CS's, etc. and we are going to have more options, not less, which is good news.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

DCT isn't a real manual transmission. It's a variation of auto.

I'm sure the techies of this forum can correct me if I'm wrong but classic automatics have torque converters that transmits engine power to the wheels through a process called fluid coupling, the so called "slushboxes."

DCT's (or sequential transmissions and their equivalents), on the other hand, don't use fluid coupling, rather they connect through actual gears and clutch, and the shifting of these gears are done automatically by computers that automate the manual shifting process.

So the DCT is more a variation of the manual gearbox than a slushbox auto.

[xlover]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

I'm sure the techies of this forum can correct me if I'm wrong but classic automatics have torque converters that transmits engine power to the wheels through a process called fluid coupling, the so called "slushboxes."

DCT's (or sequential transmissions and their equivalents), on the other hand, don't use fluid coupling, rather they connect through actual gears and clutch, and the shifting of these gears are done automatically by computers that automate the manual shifting process.

So the DCT is more a variation of the manual gearbox than a slushbox auto.

Actually by that definition they are all manuals...... most modern sport autos fully lockup as soon as the car is reasonably in motion... I think the m5 does it before the wheels make a full turn. The big variance nowadays is what is used to "slip" from a standing start and between gear changes. A dct uses slipping clutches similar to a manual (except there are two of them), MB uses a wet clutch system, torque converter autos use fluid coupling. But once locked up they are all the same... direct connection between the motor and transmission

The only real manuals are where the driver has direct control over the mechanical linkages vs electronic actuators run by a computer

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

I'm sure the techies of this forum can correct me if I'm wrong...

No need for correction - your grasp of the mechanics of the two types of transmissions is spot on.

So the DCT is more a variation of the manual gearbox than a slushbox auto.

An automatic transmission is named as such because the user doesn't have to think about interacting with it - it handles switching between the correct ratios for them. Similarly, a manual transmission is called that because the user must change gears themselves - the vehicle does not have the ability to perform that function by itself.

It is important to appreciate the above. To wit, if a customer walks into a dealership, asks to drive a vehicle with a manual transmission, and the salesperson returns with the keys to a vehicle equipped with DCT transmission, the customer will not respond positively. The opposite situation is also true for what should be very clear and obvious reasons.

All this is to say that, when we partition the set of transmissions over the means in which a user interacts with them - which is exactly what the transmission classes "automatic" and "manual" are intended to do - the mechanical details of the transmission are wholly irrelevant. It is therefore a fallacy to consider such properties when partitioning in this manner.

This, by the way, does not mean that there is no place for discussion about the merits of one type of automatic transmission verses another type. It simply means that such discussion is not on topic in this thread.

[M3GymNut]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

I'm sure the techies of this forum can correct me if I'm wrong but classic automatics have torque converters that transmits engine power to the wheels through a process called fluid coupling, the so called "slushboxes."

DCT's (or sequential transmissions and their equivalents), on the other hand, don't use fluid coupling, rather they connect through actual gears and clutch, and the shifting of these gears are done automatically by computers that automate the manual shifting process.

So the DCT is more a variation of the manual gearbox than a slushbox auto.

Granted, but the DCT is an auto transmission no matter how you slice it.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

So the DCT is more a variation of the manual gearbox than a slushbox auto.

I try to be respectful of others opinions, but the posts below have already debunked a pretty ridiculous statement quite eloquently. I cant tell if you're trolling or actually believe this insane statement.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

It is important to appreciate the above. To wit, if a customer walks into a dealership, asks to drive a vehicle with a manual transmission, and the salesperson returns with the keys to a vehicle equipped with DCT transmission, the customer will not respond positively. The opposite situation is also true for what should be very clear and obvious reasons.

The most apparent illustration is this. I would have cancelled my order upon seeing the car with 2 pedals versus 3 and waited another 5 months (at the time allocations were incredibly tight) to get the car I wanted.

[Brake_Late]

The DCT saved BMWs M line.

Three letters: SMG.
Let us never forget how absolutely awful the SMG tranny was and how it devalued the dynamic and fantastic e46 M3s. Drive one. Their terrible. And costly to own
( beyond the norm )
God even the sacred CSL is cursed with such a tranny. Not even an option for a third pedal.

Those that are still surviving are preferred in manual and are worth more accordingly.

I prefer these cars in manual.
Turbos or no turbos aside.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by Brake_Late

The DCT saved BMWs M line.

Three letters: SMG.
Let us never forget how absolutely awful the SMG tranny was and how it devalued the dynamic and fantastic e46 M3s. Drive one. Their terrible. And costly to own
( beyond the norm )
God even the sacred CSL is cursed with such a tranny. Not even an option for a third pedal.

Those that are still surviving are preferred in manual and are worth more accordingly.

I prefer these cars in manual.
Turbos or no turbos aside.

Agreed, its better than SMG, but technology has advanced. If it wasnt a DCT and was just a regular torque converting auto, 95%+ of the F8x DCT buyers still would have purchased the car.

The F90 M5 is an automatic transmission and they seem to be selling fine minus the DCT option (and the 6MT for that matter).

[Zombie_Head]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

In general, you're correct. People simply aren't buying manuals. I can't believe Honda Accord offers a manual as the take rate must be like 0.02%. With that said, it's a bit more difficult to extrapolate that people aren't buying manual M3s and M4s based on your numbers.

The reality is when I was looking for a manual M3, many dealers did not have any and they all tried to steer me to a DCT, insisting that I test drive a DCT as it would change my mind (it didn't). I'm sure there were a fair number of people who wanted manual but settled for a DCT.

Also, there are other ways you can look at your data. You can say perhaps there are fewer manuals available because those are the first to get snatched up. When I sold my last car at carmax, the salesperson there said they always have a long list of people looking for M3s and M4s with manual transmissions so when those cars come in, they are quickly bought up because there are fewer available and they are in higher demand.

That is precisely what happened to me when i was ordering a new Golf R. The dealer "automatically" added the DSG and i insisted on the manual, he gave me this "look" as if i was insane.....i told him that i want to drive the car, not the car to drive itself. Besides, it is my money, i am entitled to spend it anyway i like correct? He smiled, nodded and understood that i was not a DSG/launch control guy, he then focused on keeping 18" wheels instead of 19" upgrade (for track reasons) and "advised" me to get the CS bigger front brakes ^^

But yes, the majority of dealers will automatically push for a DCT/Auto sadly.

[Zombie_Head]

Originally Posted by Brake_Late

The DCT saved BMWs M line.

Three letters: SMG.
Let us never forget how absolutely awful the SMG tranny was and how it devalued the dynamic and fantastic e46 M3s. Drive one. Their terrible. And costly to own
( beyond the norm )
God even the sacred CSL is cursed with such a tranny. Not even an option for a third pedal.

Those that are still surviving are preferred in manual and are worth more accordingly.

I prefer these cars in manual.
Turbos or no turbos aside.

Which brings my back to my first post, nothing like revving that NA engine with all those ITBs to redline, pressing a clutch and "manually" changing gears, or even heel and toe downshift or rev matching....it just really sounds and feels great.

Hell, do that in a flat 6 air cooled 911.....or a 360 modena, Carrera GT with that pure racing v10 in a manual only or a murcielago lambo with all 12 italian cylinders screaming at the top of their lungs to 8K...jesus what happened to cars??? They quickly went from grabbing your soul to....just sales?

Anyways.....