BMW M3 and M4 - The Icons
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
home
G80 BMW M3 and M4 General Topics G80 M3 /G82 M4 versus...

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-04-2019, 05:50 PM   #45
upsidedownfunnel
Colonel
United_States
1996
Rep
2,499
Posts

Drives: 2014 335i
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2014 BMW 335i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbmw98 View Post
Here is where BMW messed up

1- Do they bother reading these forums to actually see what there customers want, instead of pandering to the china markets with huge grills and very chic styling that looks awful?

2. The new M3 will have a ZF, if they bothered to look at these forums they would know people still want the DCT.

3. If they kept the continuity of the F8X style with updated parts and tech, then they would have a winning car.
First off, forums are just large self-confirming circlejerks. Just because people on here don't like something doesn't mean that is what will sell. Forums are an extremely small microcosm of the car world. Even a lot of enthusiasts stay off forums because they can get annoying and filled with people who don't know much about cars asking stupid questions.

About the automatic transmission: IMO, an automatic is an automatic (DCT or torque converted). Automatic lovers who diss manual lovers always used to say that it was about performance. That DCT automatics shifted more quickly and were faster 0-60 (completely ignoring the fun aspect of driving). But the ZF 8HP loses no performance to the DCT and it is objectively smoother in every day traffic and can keep up on track. So what is the argument for keeping the DCT? An auto is an auto. It doesn't matter if it has planetary gears or constant mesh two-shaft gearbox. If the shift speed is comparable and there is no slipping past 1st gear, it's all the same thing. The only thing that is different is the manual. My wife's car has an automatic and it shifts very fast. The M5 Comp basically feels like a slightly smoother DCT and is a track monster. What justification do you have for the DCT?

There's a very simple and good justification for the manual (other than the low take rate of course). It is more fun for a subset of the population. You simply cannot replicate that with a DCT or any automatic. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but a manual is a manual and an auto is an auto regardless of the type of gears it uses.

Also, what makes you think the Chinese market is why they are making such large grilles? Audi has large grilles, Mercedes has large grilles, everyone is making large grilles and I am confused why you think China is the reason they're making large grilles. Most of the general buying public seems to like larger grilles. But if it was China that was dictating this decision, why shouldn't a large market for these cars dictate this decision? If that's what the majority of customers want, it's hard to argue against demand. Do you think Chinese buyers don't deserve a say in what their car looks like? In BMWs' eyes, all money is green (or whatever color Euros are).

We have no idea what the M3 is going to look like. Part of the reason why test mules have such heavy camouflage is because the design is not complete (but mostly to keep their design under wraps - literally). So you are jumping to conclusions.
Appreciate 3
Sedan_Clan24829.00
themnmd1687.00
      06-04-2019, 06:10 PM   #46
upsidedownfunnel
Colonel
United_States
1996
Rep
2,499
Posts

Drives: 2014 335i
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2014 BMW 335i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
There are plenty of DCTs out there that can handle higher amounts of HP/TQ. Porsche, Lamborghini and Ferrari are all using them. BMW wants to cut costs so they can make Electric Toyotas with Roundel's on the hood. Wait they are already doing that :

Using a ZF8 in an ///M car is a travesty. It might work for the Land Yacht M5 crowd but won't work out to well for BMW in the M2/3/4 models.
The reason mid-engined and rear-engine cars mostly use DCTs is because of packaging. That's why the traditionally torque converter auto Corvette is going with a DCT for the mid-engined C8. Can you imagine trying to fit a planetary gearbox in the back of a longitudinally mounted mid-engine car? That transmission simply does not exist.

That's also why transverse front-engine performance cars usually go with a DCT if not a manual (like hot hatches). A high performance torque converter auto is impossible to fit in a transverse configuration. That's why the RS4/RS6 have a ZF 8HP but the RS3 still has a DCT. If the RS3 were longitudinal, it'd have a ZF 8HP, I guarantee it. Notice that Honda only makes a manual Si and Type R? Or that VW only offers the option of a DCT or manual in their MQB platform cars?

An auto is an auto. They perform almost exactly the same. In fact, if you told someone that the new ZF 8HP M3 had a new DCT with smoother clutches, there'd be no reason not to believe that. Shifts are blindingly fast when tuned for a high performance car (don't use your wife's X5 shift speeds to make a decision about how all ZF 8HPs shift) and the engine is locked to the input shaft of the transmission except when you're starting from a stop. So there's no slushbox feel associated with cheaper and older automatics.

DCTs were lauded as being the supreme compromise between auto and manual, but then ZF made an automatic with constant lockup which removed the inefficiency of the torque converter, smoother 1st gear starts because of that torque converter, and actually lighter than comparable DCTs. Not to mention that plenty of cars with torque converter autos are absolute track monsters and modern ZF 8HP and Aisin 8 speeds shift faster than previous gen DCTs. The slight speed advantage that DCTs have is not even possible to translate into faster acceleration anymore. It's just a number people write on forums to tout some imaginary advantage that their (non-automatic in their heads) automatic transmission has. It's just an automatic transmission. The car does all the work for you, all you do is press the go pedal and you're off.
Appreciate 3
Sedan_Clan24829.00
themnmd1687.00
Fuller1216.50
      06-04-2019, 06:52 PM   #47
Sedan_Clan
Law Enforcer
Sedan_Clan's Avatar
Brazil
24829
Rep
22,229
Posts

Drives: '22 Chalk Gray Porsche C2S
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ..in your rearview!!!

iTrader: (26)

Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbmw98 View Post
Here is where BMW messed up

1- Do they bother reading these forums to actually see what there customers want, instead of pandering to the china markets with huge grills and very chic styling that looks awful?

2. The new M3 will have a ZF, if they bothered to look at these forums they would know people still want the DCT.

3. If they kept the continuity of the F8X style with updated parts and tech, then they would have a winning car.
First off, forums are just large self-confirming circlejerks. Just because people on here don't like something doesn't mean that is what will sell. Forums are an extremely small microcosm of the car world. Even a lot of enthusiasts stay off forums because they can get annoying and filled with people who don't know much about cars asking stupid questions.

About the automatic transmission: IMO, an automatic is an automatic (DCT or torque converted). Automatic lovers who diss manual lovers always used to say that it was about performance. That DCT automatics shifted more quickly and were faster 0-60 (completely ignoring the fun aspect of driving). But the ZF 8HP loses no performance to the DCT and it is objectively smoother in every day traffic and can keep up on track. So what is the argument for keeping the DCT? An auto is an auto. It doesn't matter if it has planetary gears or constant mesh two-shaft gearbox. If the shift speed is comparable and there is no slipping past 1st gear, it's all the same thing. The only thing that is different is the manual. My wife's car has an automatic and it shifts very fast. The M5 Comp basically feels like a slightly smoother DCT and is a track monster. What justification do you have for the DCT?

There's a very simple and good justification for the manual (other than the low take rate of course). It is more fun for a subset of the population. You simply cannot replicate that with a DCT or any automatic. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but a manual is a manual and an auto is an auto regardless of the type of gears it uses.

Also, what makes you think the Chinese market is why they are making such large grilles? Audi has large grilles, Mercedes has large grilles, everyone is making large grilles and I am confused why you think China is the reason they're making large grilles. Most of the general buying public seems to like larger grilles. But if it was China that was dictating this decision, why shouldn't a large market for these cars dictate this decision? If that's what the majority of customers want, it's hard to argue against demand. Do you think Chinese buyers don't deserve a say in what their car looks like? In BMWs' eyes, all money is green (or whatever color Euros are).

We have no idea what the M3 is going to look like. Part of the reason why test mules have such heavy camouflage is because the design is not complete (but mostly to keep their design under wraps - literally). So you are jumping to conclusions.
Very well stated!
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2019, 06:56 PM   #48
Sedan_Clan
Law Enforcer
Sedan_Clan's Avatar
Brazil
24829
Rep
22,229
Posts

Drives: '22 Chalk Gray Porsche C2S
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ..in your rearview!!!

iTrader: (26)

Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
There are plenty of DCTs out there that can handle higher amounts of HP/TQ. Porsche, Lamborghini and Ferrari are all using them. BMW wants to cut costs so they can make Electric Toyotas with Roundel's on the hood. Wait they are already doing that :

Using a ZF8 in an ///M car is a travesty. It might work for the Land Yacht M5 crowd but won't work out to well for BMW in the M2/3/4 models.
The reason mid-engined and rear-engine cars mostly use DCTs is because of packaging. That's why the traditionally torque converter auto Corvette is going with a DCT for the mid-engined C8. Can you imagine trying to fit a planetary gearbox in the back of a longitudinally mounted mid-engine car? That transmission simply does not exist.

That's also why transverse front-engine performance cars usually go with a DCT if not a manual (like hot hatches). A high performance torque converter auto is impossible to fit in a transverse configuration. That's why the RS4/RS6 have a ZF 8HP but the RS3 still has a DCT. If the RS3 were longitudinal, it'd have a ZF 8HP, I guarantee it. Notice that Honda only makes a manual Si and Type R? Or that VW only offers the option of a DCT or manual in their MQB platform cars?

An auto is an auto. They perform almost exactly the same. In fact, if you told someone that the new ZF 8HP M3 had a new DCT with smoother clutches, there'd be no reason not to believe that. Shifts are blindingly fast when tuned for a high performance car (don't use your wife's X5 shift speeds to make a decision about how all ZF 8HPs shift) and the engine is locked to the input shaft of the transmission except when you're starting from a stop. So there's no slushbox feel associated with cheaper and older automatics.

DCTs were lauded as being the supreme compromise between auto and manual, but then ZF made an automatic with constant lockup which removed the inefficiency of the torque converter, smoother 1st gear starts because of that torque converter, and actually lighter than comparable DCTs. Not to mention that plenty of cars with torque converter autos are absolute track monsters and modern ZF 8HP and Aisin 8 speeds shift faster than previous gen DCTs. The slight speed advantage that DCTs have is not even possible to translate into faster acceleration anymore. It's just a number people write on forums to tout some imaginary advantage that their (non-automatic in their heads) automatic transmission has. It's just an automatic transmission. The car does all the work for you, all you do is press the go pedal and you're off.
Applause! That was a very technical forum lashing that you just distributed to the masses. Lol!
Appreciate 1
      06-04-2019, 07:59 PM   #49
themnmd
Colonel
themnmd's Avatar
United_States
1687
Rep
2,699
Posts

Drives: 23 X5MC
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: San Rafael CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
There are plenty of DCTs out there that can handle higher amounts of HP/TQ. Porsche, Lamborghini and Ferrari are all using them. BMW wants to cut costs so they can make Electric Toyotas with Roundel's on the hood. Wait they are already doing that :

Using a ZF8 in an ///M car is a travesty. It might work for the Land Yacht M5 crowd but won't work out to well for BMW in the M2/3/4 models.
The reason mid-engined and rear-engine cars mostly use DCTs is because of packaging. That's why the traditionally torque converter auto Corvette is going with a DCT for the mid-engined C8. Can you imagine trying to fit a planetary gearbox in the back of a longitudinally mounted mid-engine car? That transmission simply does not exist.

That's also why transverse front-engine performance cars usually go with a DCT if not a manual (like hot hatches). A high performance torque converter auto is impossible to fit in a transverse configuration. That's why the RS4/RS6 have a ZF 8HP but the RS3 still has a DCT. If the RS3 were longitudinal, it'd have a ZF 8HP, I guarantee it. Notice that Honda only makes a manual Si and Type R? Or that VW only offers the option of a DCT or manual in their MQB platform cars?

An auto is an auto. They perform almost exactly the same. In fact, if you told someone that the new ZF 8HP M3 had a new DCT with smoother clutches, there'd be no reason not to believe that. Shifts are blindingly fast when tuned for a high performance car (don't use your wife's X5 shift speeds to make a decision about how all ZF 8HPs shift) and the engine is locked to the input shaft of the transmission except when you're starting from a stop. So there's no slushbox feel associated with cheaper and older automatics.

DCTs were lauded as being the supreme compromise between auto and manual, but then ZF made an automatic with constant lockup which removed the inefficiency of the torque converter, smoother 1st gear starts because of that torque converter, and actually lighter than comparable DCTs. Not to mention that plenty of cars with torque converter autos are absolute track monsters and modern ZF 8HP and Aisin 8 speeds shift faster than previous gen DCTs. The slight speed advantage that DCTs have is not even possible to translate into faster acceleration anymore. It's just a number people write on forums to tout some imaginary advantage that their (non-automatic in their heads) automatic transmission has. It's just an automatic transmission. The car does all the work for you, all you do is press the go pedal and you're off.
agreed. besides new m3 m4's are gonna be 500hp beasts. they will have the stiffer chassi of new 3 series with a stiffer suspension. I think many people will be pleasantly surprised. the feedback on m340 by owners has been much better than I thought .
Appreciate 1
      06-04-2019, 08:48 PM   #50
GrussGott
Lieutenant General
GrussGott's Avatar
United_States
18113
Rep
11,746
Posts

Drives: 2018 M4 Comp Indv
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newport Beach

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post

About the automatic transmission: IMO, an automatic is an automatic
yes, but only for inexperienced M-DCT drivers.

DCT drivers who also love and are skilled MT drivers know that a BMW M-DCT (<-key point) behaves just like a manual without the clutch: rolls backwards at stop lights, no foot on the brake, you can feather the clutch with the accelerator pedal instead of a clutch pedal, etc.

So your argument is right for inexperienced DCT drivers - for experienced manual and DCT drivers, a DCT is kind of the best of both worlds in terms of feel and performance - yes you don't get the arm motion and less clutch flexibility, but in giving that up you get speed and the wicked mule-kick shifts (the 2015 original software Ms were WAY WAY more scary than the 2016+ or the competition)

The ZF would eliminate all of the MT feel, not just some of it like the M-DCT does.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurtleBoy View Post
He tries to draw people into inane arguments, some weird pastime of his.

Last edited by GrussGott; 06-04-2019 at 11:15 PM..
Appreciate 4
      06-04-2019, 11:20 PM   #51
themnmd
Colonel
themnmd's Avatar
United_States
1687
Rep
2,699
Posts

Drives: 23 X5MC
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: San Rafael CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
DCT vs Z8 hp

The identical car with same driver except for DCT and ZF8 HP would likely put up the same 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, at least less than 1/10 second. Maybe on a track DCT would eek out a win. Now it's possible that the AWD with the Z8 makes it closer. professional drivers have turned in impressive times with the Z8 and not any serious complaints. No need for DCT save it for your $300k Ferrari or Lamborghini. Those are the cars that benefit from it . Now I love BMW, but they are the exotics of the Italians.
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2019, 11:24 PM   #52
///M4ster Yoda
Banned
4602
Rep
4,265
Posts

Drives: '16 F82 M4
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Long Island, NY

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post

About the automatic transmission: IMO, an automatic is an automatic
yes, but only for inexperienced M-DCT drivers.

DCT drivers who also love and are skilled MT drivers know that a BMW M-DCT (<-key point) behaves just like a manual without the clutch: rolls backwards at stop lights, no foot on the brake, you can feather the clutch with the accelerator pedal instead of a clutch pedal, etc.

So your argument is right for inexperienced DCT drivers - for experienced manual and DCT drivers, a DCT is kind of the best of both worlds in terms of feel and performance - yes you don't get the arm motion and less clutch flexibility, but in giving that up you get speed and the wicked mule-kick shifts (the 2015 original software Ms were WAY WAY more scary than the 2016+ or the competition)

The ZF would eliminate all of the MT feel, not just some of it like the M-DCT does.
This ^^^^^^
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2019, 05:07 AM   #53
2011zx10R
Lieutenant
427
Rep
554
Posts

Drives: 2016 M3
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Connecticut

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
This ^^^^^^
If I want AWD I'll buy an Audi
If I want best 0 to 60 whatever Tesla

If I want the most interactive driving experience and best looking I'll keep my
6mt F80
Appreciate 0
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:19 AM.




g80
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST