[10"]

Originally Posted by LMBe82

Of course some people will always complain but I just ignore them. Like I do with my wife.

People who buy automatics don't complain...because they're not really into what they're buying. They fall for marketing and just buy whatever other people are buying. Buying a 6MT in 2019 means you are dedicated to the process of driving, being involved, wanting to enjoy the art of driving.

It's not about marketing Ring times (the single dumbest performance criteria people pay attention to these days). It's not about gear change speed. Most of us who drive manual gearboxes are ok at driving manuals but we are always improving, always involved at becoming better drivers.

So yes we will complain. The art of driving has taken a backseat to shitty bazillion speed ZF transmissions which capture 0 emotion. Replaced by toggling an iPad that's the main feature of the dashboard. By electronic steering racks that feel "artificially quick" but lacking any input or feedback. By electronic sensors that prevent neck and mind exercise by auto parking or driving. By the dumbification of driving that makes 90% of buyers say "cool!!" And 10% of us that cringe with horror. It's ok to complain when needed; it makes things happen.

[Who's on first]

Originally Posted by alex2364

All these new variations will make it very hard to find the exact one you want on dealer lots since they stock very few Ms to begin with.

What's the problem in that?

Anyone can build the exact one they want.

[Remonster]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I have no illusions about my M4 being a race car or even a dedicated track car. What I am interested in is a car that fits the definition of a Grand Touring car and I feel that the m3/4 fits that definition perfectly. GT cars combine comfort, style, and performance to create a swift, opulent driving experience.

I do not want a car that is uncomfortable for a long distance drive, that shakes the fillings out of my teeth or gets upset on rough roads, snaps my neck when it shifts gears or is so loud that it drowns out the sound system or makes it difficult to carry on a conversation.

I want a car that starts right up in cold weather, had a good climate control system, a good infotainment system, adjustable, heated seats, etc. and is comfortable cruising for long periods on an interstate and is fun and responsive on a twisty back road.

I understand that the "Pure" version will appeal to some and I am glad to see BMW offer it but it is probably not a car that would appeal to me.

The reality of the situation is that any version of the M3/4 is going to have more performance than is usable on public roads and if the next version is capable of going around the Nürburgring faster with a professional at the wheel I don't really care.

This nails it for me, too. The M3 is a car that does everything well and is so well-rounded. I got my F80 after having such a positive experience with my E92, I drove that car everywhere and never wanted to get out. An M3 should be fast, fun on any type of road, fun and durable on track, comfortable, look good, sound good, have a nicely appointed interior, etc. It isn't a GT3 or a Nismo 370Z, this is not a one-trick pony and really shouldn't be at this price and size point.

If you want your M3 to be focused on track and canyon performance, this Pure edition seems like an amazing fit and it's great that BMW may offer this package at a lower price, too. For me, I want my next M3 to have it all BUT I would probably want it with a manual transmission again. I haven't driven the F90 M5 with its new automatic which supposedly is different than the other automatics in the rest of BMW's line up so I'll reserve judgement for now. So far I've had 6 manual BMWs and 1 DCT and I would honestly be surprised if I was willing to give up the manual for my next car.

[KTN]

Originally Posted by 10"

People who buy automatics don't complain...because they're not really into what they're buying. They fall for marketing and just buy whatever other people are buying. Buying a 6MT in 2019 means you are dedicated to the process of driving, being involved, wanting to enjoy the art of driving.

It's not about marketing Ring times (the single dumbest performance criteria people pay attention to these days). It's not about gear change speed. Most of us who drive manual gearboxes are ok at driving manuals but we are always improving, always involved at becoming better drivers.

So yes we will complain. The art of driving has taken a backseat to shitty bazillion speed ZF transmissions which capture 0 emotion. Replaced by toggling an iPad that's the main feature of the dashboard. By electronic steering racks that feel "artificially quick" but lacking any input or feedback. By electronic sensors that prevent neck and mind exercise by auto parking or driving. By the dumbification of driving that makes 90% of buyers say "cool!!" And 10% of us that cringe with horror. It's ok to complain when needed; it makes things happen.

Are you aware of the thread you're in?

Or did you forget while typing out the usual mantra that exclusively MT purists are the driving gods and if you set foot in an AT you should shrivel up and disappear before the might of your highness?

But yeah sure. Keep on complaining about wanting a pure MT car experience, while belittling your fellow enthusiasts to make you feel like you're more than them, all while in a thread about how BMW will provide a "pure" manual version of the upcoming M3 and M4. Just way to go to prove your point, Mr. Art of Driving.

Keep on complaining when BMW seems to at least try to give you what you want, or show they care somewhat. That'll "make things happen".

Or is that your problem? That all this is happening, so you'll have less of a chance putting yourself on a pedestal for driving a manual?
Also I'm not sure whether you noticed, but all the MT driving-focused people uninterested in marketing numbers are complaining here because the MT version will probably be slightly down on power.

And excuse me for also appreciating ATs for what they are and what they do. I'm currently driving a manual, and have only ever owned manuals so far, so I'm hoping you'll forgive me.

[Who's on first]

Originally Posted by 10"

People who buy automatics don't complain...because they're not really into what they're buying. They fall for marketing and just buy whatever other people are buying. Buying a 6MT in 2019 means you are dedicated to the process of driving, being involved, wanting to enjoy the art of driving.

It's not about marketing Ring times (the single dumbest performance criteria people pay attention to these days). It's not about gear change speed. Most of us who drive manual gearboxes are ok at driving manuals but we are always improving, always involved at becoming better drivers.

So yes we will complain. The art of driving has taken a backseat to shitty bazillion speed ZF transmissions which capture 0 emotion. Replaced by toggling an iPad that's the main feature of the dashboard. By electronic steering racks that feel "artificially quick" but lacking any input or feedback. By electronic sensors that prevent neck and mind exercise by auto parking or driving. By the dumbification of driving that makes 90% of buyers say "cool!!" And 10% of us that cringe with horror. It's ok to complain when needed; it makes things happen.

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.

At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[JMon]

I just want an M5 awd, just a smaller package. I think this will be what I want!
I think the M2 is replacing the M3s spot, I'm ok with that.

[gatorfast]

Bunch of complainers. I'm sure the next M3 will be an amazing car just as every M3 before it has been.

[JMon]

You should see what happens on the Porsche forums when they mess with the 911. You would think people still wanted a car from the 70s.

[Who's on first]

Originally Posted by JMon

I just want an M5 awd, just a smaller package. I think this will be what I want!
I think the M2 is replacing the M3s spot, I'm ok with that.

This is spot on.

I'll go back to a M3/4 if they can make the separation from Comfort to Sport + as wide as humanly possible. To make up for the shorter wheelbase.

[JAhmed]

Originally Posted by unc879wins

M3 Legacy?

M3 Track?

M3 Traditional?

Pure may not be such a bad name after all, lol. Marketing peeps, have at it!

M3 Glutton?

[PRUVEIT]

I truly wish they would put a manual across the entire line, but I'm happy that there will be a manual.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by Who's on first

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.

At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Of course God will have mercy on his soul - because clearly God chose the 6MT in his car as well - and would never lower himself to the level of us mortal scoundrels who have DCT...

That being said - I now have a combined 160,000 miles driving a DCT since 2008 including on track multiple times (E93 and two F80's). Even tonight I can't wait to drive my lowly DCT equipped F80 to work tomorrow. So yes - it is possible to be completely fulfilled as an enthusiast driving something that doesn't have a clutch pedal.

For those of you who swear by manuals - enjoy! But also add me to the list of those who are sick of the holier-than-thou types who think you have to have a manual to be in love with driving your car...

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by Who's on first

What's the problem in that?

Anyone can build the exact one they want.

How do you get the same amount of discount on a car that’s been sitting on the lot for a year compared to a custom build?

[Who's on first]

Originally Posted by alex2364

How do you get the same amount of discount on a car that’s been sitting on the lot for a year compared to a custom build?

Couple things:

1) Have a relationship with your dealer. I haven't "negotiated" a sales price in years.

2) Know the numbers
A) Invoice on Base MSRP
B) Invoice on Options
C) Current Incentives

3) If you're buying a ~$90,000 car and an "extra"
(which will only happen on a REALLY SHITTY BUILD someone backed out on)
savings of $1,000-$2,000 on a "Lot" car sways you to buy a car that's not exactly as you want.

You should immediately stab yourself in the eye with a fork.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I tend to take the MT purists with a grain of salt but I cut also tend to cut them some slack since I used to espouse the same attitude. I convinced myself that driving a car well below its limits on public roads somehow made me an expert driver because I was driving a manual transmission. I now realize that while I thought I was driving at the cars limits in reality I was driving at my own limits.

Then I started driving race cars on race tracks and was coached by professional race drivers. It was somewhat of an epiphany to learn that tf these race car drivers, several of them national champions and competitors and winners of races like LeMans, Daytona 24 Hour. 12 Hours of Sebring, Indy 500. etc. had no aversion to automatic transmissions and one thing several of the said was "I am interested in anything that makes the car go faster." If you think driving a paddle shifted car is "boring" try driving one around a race track at 100% of the cars capabilities when the car is sliding around the corners at the limits of grip. To quote Mario Andretti "If you feel that everything is under control you aren't going fast enough".

The conclusion I came to was that the level or insistence on the superiority of manual transmissions tends to be inversely proportional to the skill and experience of the driver. Note that I did not say "the preference for a manual transmission".


Preference is a personal matter and your preferences are your business and I am not in a position to dictate anyone's preference for a transmission type, car brand, favorite food, favorite music, or anything else. But don't tell me I don't enjoy driving because I drive a DCT instead of an MT or that I don't enjoy music because I prefer jazz to country or that I don't enjoy wine because I prefer Malbec to Pinot Noir. To each his own and I respect the fact that there are people who have different tastes than I do. Our different tastes express or individuality. My idea of an ideal world is not one where I pull into a parking lot and park with dozens of cars identical to mine and go into a restaurant where everyone orders the same thing I do.

Agree 100%. When people say "real racers don't drive automatic" my response has been "well I guess every professional race car driver for the better part of the past two decades isn't a real driver then". Usually, in response of argument based on the disbelief that nearly every single category of racing is now autos with paddles.

[2011zx10R]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I exclusively drove manuals for many years but since the time I started driving ATs, whether DCT or planetary, have gotten much better than the 2 Speed Powerglide/Fordomatic "Slushboxes" of years ago. I currently have cars with MT, ZF, DCT. I enjoy driving all of them and would not own a car I do not enjoy driving.

I have been involved in high performance driver training for a number of years and currently have a track membership that allows me what is for all practical purposes unlimited track access. This experience has taught me two things. I am a much better driver than I was. I am no where near as good a driver as I thought I was. There is a lot more to high performance driving than shifting gears and I would go as far as to say that shifting an MT is one of the easiest skills to master.

If there is anyone here that concludes that because my M4 has a DCT I am not dedicated to the process of driving and being involved and do not want to enjoy the art of driving they are certainly entitled to their opinion. Since I have access to some of the top professional driving and racing coaches in the business I tend to take their opinions more seriously than the opinion of a random poster on an Internet forum.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I exclusively drove manuals for many years but since the time I started driving ATs, whether DCT or planetary, have gotten much better than the 2 Speed Powerglide/Fordomatic "Slushboxes" of years ago. I currently have cars with MT, ZF, DCT. I enjoy driving all of them and would not own a car I do not enjoy driving.

I have been involved in high performance driver training for a number of years and currently have a track membership that allows me what is for all practical purposes unlimited track access. This experience has taught me two things. I am a much better driver than I was. I am no where near as good a driver as I thought I was. There is a lot more to high performance driving than shifting gears and I would go as far as to say that shifting an MT is one of the easiest skills to master.

If there is anyone here that concludes that because my M4 has a DCT I am not dedicated to the process of driving and being involved and do not want to enjoy the art of driving they are certainly entitled to their opinion. Since I have access to some of the top professional driving and racing coaches in the business I tend to take their opinions more seriously than the opinion of a random poster on an Internet forum.

Nothing wrong with driving an automatic.

Floor it and steer; easier to sell etc.

Who's right who's wrong?

It's an enthusiast web site.

When I was getting my F80, one of the sales reps said I don't need a sunroof because it adds weight. Also told me to get DCT because of 0 to 60 mph etc. lol

I said I'm not trying to shave time off on the Nurburgring.

Leather 6mt sunroof FTW

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Seba77W

The ZF is faster that's why it's replacing the DCT in all the M cars. Have you even driven one? Much better feel than DCT.

Originally Posted by dmboone25

The new M5 is faster than the old one, sure. But are the shifts objectively faster than the DCT?

“Feel” is subjective. I’ve never been in a car that had any form of a ZF that I liked in any respect, much less preferred over a DCT.

It is so boring that I can’t imagine ever owning one. In fact, my next car will be either an M2C, M3CS, or a P car because I refuse to put up with that sort of expensive in any car.

I spent time in an F90 M5 on Friday all on the track. I was surprised also about the shifting speed/quality as I expected it to be superb given all the praise the 8AT has been given. In a couple of sections if was just too slow to respond to my paddle request to downshift (request made when it could easily complete the 3-2 downshift without revs being too high)...perhaps it was due to intense braking in progress about to lead into heavy trailbraking, and the "system" wasn't going to allow a downshift. Anyway, overall, it felt nothing like a DCT to me. I suppose I would just say it's pretty good for an AT.

The F90 is brutally fast...no doubt. It's amazing on track how quickly you adapt to its acceleration. The AWD system worked incredibly well putting down the power, especially the part about it not feeling like a ponderous/understeering Audi. It felt light on its feet to an extent somehow even given the mass it's carrying.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

I spent time in an F90 M5 on Friday all on the track. I was surprised also about the shifting speed/quality as I expected it to be superb given all the praise the 8AT has been given. In a couple of sections if was just too slow to respond to my paddle request to downshift (request made when it could easily complete the 3-2 downshift without revs being too high)...perhaps it was due to intense braking in progress about to lead into heavy trailbraking, and the "system" wasn't going to allow a downshift. Anyway, overall, it felt nothing like a DCT to me. I suppose I would just say it's pretty good for an AT.

The F90 is brutally fast...no doubt. It's amazing on track how quickly you adapt to its acceleration. The AWD system worked incredibly well putting down the power, especially the part about it not feeling like a ponderous/understeering Audi. It felt light on its feet to an extent somehow even given the mass it's carrying.

F90 M5 does an excellent job when left in automatic. I absolutely HATE that philosophy in an M.

[CBBMWNA]

Hmm. M range continues to get more and more complicated. M4 GC sounds appealing... One of the best F80's I have driven was one that literally had every option and a bunch of M Performance parts on it - truly a visceral experience. Sounds like that will be different later this year....

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by dantm3

This is everyone's scenario they were asking for.. 6 speed purist car, and awd options that can handle power with auto. The zf 8 speed and 10 speed is now in every track car like zL1 and vette.. they say it is just as good or faster shifting then any dct... I like the dct but will still want a manual before I get to old to want to drive one anymore. I do think it's funny that everyone wants a v8 Manual.. the e90s are selling for 25k now, go get 3 of them for the price of the new m3

And videos show that it doesn't like to shift at times lol

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by phoenixbmwlife

Why would you wish that on anyone?

I'm not wishing it in anyone. I'm waiting for it to happen because we both know it will haha

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

I spent time in an F90 M5 on Friday all on the track. I was surprised also about the shifting speed/quality as I expected it to be superb given all the praise the 8AT has been given. In a couple of sections if was just too slow to respond to my paddle request to downshift (request made when it could easily complete the 3-2 downshift without revs being too high)...perhaps it was due to intense braking in progress about to lead into heavy trailbraking, and the "system" wasn't going to allow a downshift. Anyway, overall, it felt nothing like a DCT to me. I suppose I would just say it's pretty good for an AT.

The F90 is brutally fast...no doubt. It's amazing on track how quickly you adapt to its acceleration. The AWD system worked incredibly well putting down the power, especially the part about it not feeling like a ponderous/understeering Audi. It felt light on its feet to an extent somehow even given the mass it's carrying.

Also have spent time on track with the F90, but no shifting issues whatsoever. Upshifts & downshifts were responsive and plenty fast.

Have a counter-opinion to the prevailing point of view after tracking the F90, C63 S. Found the latest autos to be totally sufficient. Double downshifts are the only circumstances in which the absence of DCT is really apparent. Shifts aren't as crisp as DCT or PDK, but that's not disruptive to the track experience, imo, i.e. you're not thinking about the shift times or gearbox behavior. (Lack of response to downshifts happens with DCT boxes sometimes too.)

Couldn't agree more with your other M5 track observations.

Bringing it back to the thread subject, a 550 bhp CSL with the M5's AWD system would be devastatingly fast. Convinced that M5 AWD fitted to my GTS would gain seconds/lap. It's that advantageous on corner exit, and doesn't hamper elsewhere.

Not sure I'd want it though. Managing throttle and steering at corner exit is a fundamental rwd M3/M4 experience. AWD system simplifies corner exit immensely. Look way down the track, get the front tires pointed toward your target, and nail it.

Could just select 2wd I suppose, but my sense and speculation is that M has deprioritized traction at the rear as compared to when it was the only drive option. The cars are engineered to go fast in AWD mode. 2wd has become hoon mode.