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      01-22-2018, 10:28 PM   #67
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I'm not willing to take that chance and got myself a '18 F80 with its glorious third pedal
Same here
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      01-22-2018, 11:38 PM   #68
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There will be a manual the next go round. Dealers don't know shit.
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      01-22-2018, 11:56 PM   #69
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Thanks OP for doing your part to save the MT. As for the GMs comments I'd take it with a grain of salt.
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      01-23-2018, 12:59 AM   #70
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MT is no longer offer on M5 so does the DCT, is the M3/M4 would be next victim? Will find out when BMW makes the announcement on the next M3.
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      01-23-2018, 01:16 AM   #71
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What has been the typical product announcement in their development cycles? Anyone have a ballpark? 1 year plus?
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      01-24-2018, 06:18 AM   #72
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The safe assumption to make at this point is that the G80 will come with a traditional torque converter automatic as the F90 M5 does now as it's only transmission. If a 6MT is offered, then just be surprised that it happens. With the 6MT vs DCT take rate on the M2 right at 50/50, it's highly likely the next gen M2 will be available with a 6MT, and with the continual size growth with each new generation of BMW cars, an M2 sedan is probably the only place traditional driving fun will reside from BMW.
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      01-24-2018, 08:00 AM   #73
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If they get rid of the 6MT...how are they going to charge everyone $2,900 for a DCT / automatic? I guess they'd just bump up the base price.
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      01-24-2018, 09:28 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by jschulz79 View Post
If they get rid of the 6MT...how are they going to charge everyone $2,900 for a DCT / automatic? I guess they'd just bump up the base price.
They'll charge a monthly subscription to use manual mode.
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      01-25-2018, 08:00 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
...an M2 sedan is probably the only place traditional driving fun will reside from BMW.
That's not happening any time soon if ever. All four-door BMW passenger cars beneath the 3 Series will be built on the UKL (soon to become FAAR) platform. And BMW M appears very reluctant to go above the upcoming M Performance *35i range for its lineup on that platform. If they change course, it would most probably be after the upcoming first generation 2 Series Gran Coupe ends production sometime in the late 2020s. By then, I'd expect most products to be PHEV at least, and the era of manual transmissions in performance sedans will probably be in the past.
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      01-26-2018, 02:36 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by zamboni View Post
MT is no longer offer on M5 so does the DCT, is the M3/M4 would be next victim? Will find out when BMW makes the announcement on the next M3.
M2/M3 will have MT for at least one more generation than M5 did
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      02-02-2018, 02:51 AM   #77
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damn... i like it manual
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      02-02-2018, 07:38 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
That's not happening any time soon if ever. All four-door BMW passenger cars beneath the 3 Series will be built on the UKL (soon to become FAAR) platform. And BMW M appears very reluctant to go above the upcoming M Performance *35i range for its lineup on that platform. If they change course, it would most probably be after the upcoming first generation 2 Series Gran Coupe ends production sometime in the late 2020s. By then, I'd expect most products to be PHEV at least, and the era of manual transmissions in performance sedans will probably be in the past.
Yeah, thanks for reminding me! I've given up on BMW. Having been a enthusiast of the brand since 1971, they've left the station for good and don't appear to be coming back. It's amazing how Audi and Merc are eating them alive in the small sedan market, and they don't care. They think it is about price when it is really about size. I sure wish Porsche would build a 2-series sized sedan, RWD of course, and 6MT available.
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      02-02-2018, 09:21 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Yeah, thanks for reminding me! I've given up on BMW. Having been a enthusiast of the brand since 1971, they've left the station for good and don't appear to be coming back. It's amazing how Audi and Merc are eating them alive in the small sedan market, and they don't care. They think it is about price when it is really about size. I sure wish Porsche would build a 2-series sized sedan, RWD of course, and 6MT available.
Eating them alive? Wow, people will make up shit just to talk shit...

Where are articles and facts for you to backup what you are saying?
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      02-02-2018, 09:43 AM   #80
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Eating them alive? Wow, people will make up shit just to talk shit...

Where are articles and facts for you to backup what you are saying?
All you have to do is look at CLA and A3/S3 sales numbers...all are small sedans selling in large numbers and BMW isn't participating in that market at all. Making *hit up? Hardly. If you want to really tell the story sum up the 3-series sales totals versus A4+S4+A3+S3 totals...will give you an idea of how poorly BMW is participating in that total segment. Audi and Merc both were worried that the A3/S3 and CLA would "steal" from the A4/S4 and C class -- didn't happen. They expanded their share of the small sedan market while BMW was left in the cold.
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      02-06-2018, 10:38 PM   #81
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Do not take BMWs rationale for no manual at face value. While the numbers are surely correct, do not forget that the reason the number of people wanting manual is dropping is because very large numbers of people have simply left the brand to go to Mercedes AMG and Porsche. Countless former BMW fans are there right now.

No wonder both brands have been selling more now then ever in their history. No coincidence I'm sure.

But BMW is not unhappy about this shift. They care purely about maximum profit and nothing more. It is far more cost effective for them to sell M cars to undiscerning customers who only care about the badge and a bright colored car, similar to a child. It is more cost effective because engineering effort does not have to be put into innovation or the ever elusive "feel" of a car, as parts can be recycled across he entire BMW range as well as platforms. It's quite easy money. The same way vw/Audi has been operating since the 90s.

Of course BMW will learn the hard way that undiscerning customers are by definition fickle customers. They will quickly leave the brand for 3 reasons. (A) they are by definition sheep and lemmings so they will (b) follow the crowd. The leaders of any crowd are the dedicated and knowledgeable. The dedicated and knowledgeable car enthusiasts have either already left BMW or are waiting for a unicorn to re-emerge, which it will not and so they will also eventually leave. (C) finally, another manufacturer will figure out how to make something even more shiny and ridiculous then current day bmws are and the fickle idiots will go there. When that day comes well then it's game over. No enthusiasts and no idiots to keep things moving.

That's when bmws conversion to Toyota is complete. BMW has already lost all zeal for making a market (the way great companies like BMW of the past, apple, etc do), and now wait until others have carved out a market then they join in to bite at the periphery. Take for example the x2 and fwd 2gc. Shameful for BMW and will be totally forgettable products as a result. Do you remember when the x5 first came out. An SUV that drove like a BMW. It was a remarkable concept for its time and the product showed the amount of effort that went into it. A true feat and the x5 lineage was guaranteed for many years to come (and indeed up to present day). The same can be said for the 3 series and m3. Is this same mentality there with the x2 or 2gc? Of course not and after the newness of those products wears off people will continue to gravitate towards Mercedes and Audi offerings. A leader shapes the market.

Porsche on the other hand has figured out how to do it. Make something the enthusiasts love. The rank and file superficial idiots follow them and fill porsches coffers, but make no mistake it's because Porsche stays laser focused on the enhthusiast.

Take for example when the 991.1 gt3 was having serious engine failure issues. What did Porsche do? They invited enthusiasts to Porsche HQ. treated them well. Flew in a top executive from Germany who demonstrated the fixes being proposed and topped it off with a warranty for 120k miles on all engines, no matter who owns the car. That's how you treat enthusiasts. Keep them happy and they keep singing the praises and the lemmings follow.

BMW on the other hand takes a different approach to us. When an issue arises they obfuscate, ridicule or marginalize customers and sometimes (at least in the case of scott) throw out racist slander.

Of course enthusiasts are a drop in the bucket in sheer numbers, but we are no question the moral authority on cars and to take our opinions and our fandom for granted is the ultimate stupidity. While BMW ridicules, Porsche and Mercedes AMG are laughing all the way to the bank. Notice that as BMW is phasing out manuals Porsche is distilling manuals across their lineup in the coming generation. No coincidence I'm sure.
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      02-07-2018, 06:02 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c63er View Post
Do not take BMWs rationale for no manual at face value. While the numbers are surely correct, do not forget that the reason the number of people wanting manual is dropping is because very large numbers of people have simply left the brand to go to Mercedes AMG and Porsche. Countless former BMW fans are there right now.

No wonder both brands have been selling more now then ever in their history. No coincidence I'm sure.

But BMW is not unhappy about this shift. They care purely about maximum profit and nothing more. It is far more cost effective for them to sell M cars to undiscerning customers who only care about the badge and a bright colored car, similar to a child. It is more cost effective because engineering effort does not have to be put into innovation or the ever elusive "feel" of a car, as parts can be recycled across he entire BMW range as well as platforms. It's quite easy money. The same way vw/Audi has been operating since the 90s.

Of course BMW will learn the hard way that undiscerning customers are by definition fickle customers. They will quickly leave the brand for 3 reasons. (A) they are by definition sheep and lemmings so they will (b) follow the crowd. The leaders of any crowd are the dedicated and knowledgeable. The dedicated and knowledgeable car enthusiasts have either already left BMW or are waiting for a unicorn to re-emerge, which it will not and so they will also eventually leave. (C) finally, another manufacturer will figure out how to make something even more shiny and ridiculous then current day bmws are and the fickle idiots will go there. When that day comes well then it's game over. No enthusiasts and no idiots to keep things moving.

That's when bmws conversion to Toyota is complete. BMW has already lost all zeal for making a market (the way great companies like BMW of the past, apple, etc do), and now wait until others have carved out a market then they join in to bite at the periphery. Take for example the x2 and fwd 2gc. Shameful for BMW and will be totally forgettable products as a result. Do you remember when the x5 first came out. An SUV that drove like a BMW. It was a remarkable concept for its time and the product showed the amount of effort that went into it. A true feat and the x5 lineage was guaranteed for many years to come (and indeed up to present day). The same can be said for the 3 series and m3. Is this same mentality there with the x2 or 2gc? Of course not and after the newness of those products wears off people will continue to gravitate towards Mercedes and Audi offerings. A leader shapes the market.

Porsche on the other hand has figured out how to do it. Make something the enthusiasts love. The rank and file superficial idiots follow them and fill porsches coffers, but make no mistake it's because Porsche stays laser focused on the enhthusiast.

Take for example when the 991.1 gt3 was having serious engine failure issues. What did Porsche do? They invited enthusiasts to Porsche HQ. treated them well. Flew in a top executive from Germany who demonstrated the fixes being proposed and topped it off with a warranty for 120k miles on all engines, no matter who owns the car. That's how you treat enthusiasts. Keep them happy and they keep singing the praises and the lemmings follow.

BMW on the other hand takes a different approach to us. When an issue arises they obfuscate, ridicule or marginalize customers and sometimes (at least in the case of scott) throw out racist slander.

Of course enthusiasts are a drop in the bucket in sheer numbers, but we are no question the moral authority on cars and to take our opinions and our fandom for granted is the ultimate stupidity. While BMW ridicules, Porsche and Mercedes AMG are laughing all the way to the bank. Notice that as BMW is phasing out manuals Porsche is distilling manuals across their lineup in the coming generation. No coincidence I'm sure.
Wow Amen. Such an ominous but true post from the heart.
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      02-08-2018, 07:37 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c63er View Post
Do not take BMWs rationale for no manual at face value. While the numbers are surely correct, do not forget that the reason the number of people wanting manual is dropping is because very large numbers of people have simply left the brand to go to Mercedes AMG and Porsche. Countless former BMW fans are there right now.

No wonder both brands have been selling more now then ever in their history. No coincidence I'm sure.

But BMW is not unhappy about this shift. They care purely about maximum profit and nothing more. It is far more cost effective for them to sell M cars to undiscerning customers who only care about the badge and a bright colored car, similar to a child. It is more cost effective because engineering effort does not have to be put into innovation or the ever elusive "feel" of a car, as parts can be recycled across he entire BMW range as well as platforms. It's quite easy money. The same way vw/Audi has been operating since the 90s.

Of course BMW will learn the hard way that undiscerning customers are by definition fickle customers. They will quickly leave the brand for 3 reasons. (A) they are by definition sheep and lemmings so they will (b) follow the crowd. The leaders of any crowd are the dedicated and knowledgeable. The dedicated and knowledgeable car enthusiasts have either already left BMW or are waiting for a unicorn to re-emerge, which it will not and so they will also eventually leave. (C) finally, another manufacturer will figure out how to make something even more shiny and ridiculous then current day bmws are and the fickle idiots will go there. When that day comes well then it's game over. No enthusiasts and no idiots to keep things moving.

That's when bmws conversion to Toyota is complete. BMW has already lost all zeal for making a market (the way great companies like BMW of the past, apple, etc do), and now wait until others have carved out a market then they join in to bite at the periphery. Take for example the x2 and fwd 2gc. Shameful for BMW and will be totally forgettable products as a result. Do you remember when the x5 first came out. An SUV that drove like a BMW. It was a remarkable concept for its time and the product showed the amount of effort that went into it. A true feat and the x5 lineage was guaranteed for many years to come (and indeed up to present day). The same can be said for the 3 series and m3. Is this same mentality there with the x2 or 2gc? Of course not and after the newness of those products wears off people will continue to gravitate towards Mercedes and Audi offerings. A leader shapes the market.

Porsche on the other hand has figured out how to do it. Make something the enthusiasts love. The rank and file superficial idiots follow them and fill porsches coffers, but make no mistake it's because Porsche stays laser focused on the enhthusiast.

Take for example when the 991.1 gt3 was having serious engine failure issues. What did Porsche do? They invited enthusiasts to Porsche HQ. treated them well. Flew in a top executive from Germany who demonstrated the fixes being proposed and topped it off with a warranty for 120k miles on all engines, no matter who owns the car. That's how you treat enthusiasts. Keep them happy and they keep singing the praises and the lemmings follow.

BMW on the other hand takes a different approach to us. When an issue arises they obfuscate, ridicule or marginalize customers and sometimes (at least in the case of scott) throw out racist slander.

Of course enthusiasts are a drop in the bucket in sheer numbers, but we are no question the moral authority on cars and to take our opinions and our fandom for granted is the ultimate stupidity. While BMW ridicules, Porsche and Mercedes AMG are laughing all the way to the bank. Notice that as BMW is phasing out manuals Porsche is distilling manuals across their lineup in the coming generation. No coincidence I'm sure.
I hear you but also believe you're way too focused on the negatives. Every company has a strategy and Porsche's strategy, just like Apple, Bang & Olufsen, etc, and, alas, BMW, is to create some products that appeal to their core, while others help them achieve true growth in sales and profitability needed for sustainability.

For Apple, they make big ugly Plus-sized iPhones even after they claimed for years that they would never do it as it compromises single-handed use, but here we are because it makes money. For Porsche, they make Cayenne's and Macan's to sell to the masses and hold back the 718s from what they could be so that they can make more money on the higher margin 911. BMW is doing no different.

For BMW, in my opinion, you need to look beyond the noise (X2, 2 Series Active Tourer, etc) to see the gems. For me the gems are still ever present and perhaps this sentiment is because I don't try and actively compare BMW to the "good ol days" when they had 5 models. Times have changed. What do I think are the gems and how are they appealing to enthusiasts?

- M235i and M2, nuff said
- F80 M3 is lighter, faster than predecessor and the only car in its class that comfortably fits 5 with a 6MT offered
- F10 M5 offered with a manual even while Porsche phased it out on their GT3 (only to bring it back later)
- M Track Days offered at $250 - purely a nod to enthusiasts
- Free track day offered with M car purchase at Performance Center
- Not to mention all of the BMW Ultimate Drive events going on year round
- First company to invest in a motorsports oriented electric vehicle (i8) and keep it true to concept
- M135i is apparently brilliant and practical although I've never driven it
- 1M a few years ago was purely a nod to enthusiasts
- Active investment in and actual use of lightweight materials (CFRP) in mass production vehicles

I'm sure list goes on. Your username suggests an interest in Benz, so it's super interesting to hear this from you considering what MB is doing with 43/53 AMG models and proliferating the AMG brand across SUVs, sedans, trucks, etc that don't deserve the association at all. At least we could agree that BMW does that to a much lesser extent. It's easy to criticize but we can also appreciate that there are signs BMW is still there and looking out for us despite needing to keep the lights on with some mass market products. I'm excited for what the future holds and still value the company and look forward to what they offer next.
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      03-29-2018, 03:58 PM   #84
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Rumors are that the next M3 is no manuals and CVT only.
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      03-29-2018, 04:03 PM   #85
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Quote:
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Rumors are that the next M3 is no manuals and CVT only.
Lol when did BMW become Nissan
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      03-31-2018, 10:31 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndukyh View Post
I hear you but also believe you're way too focused on the negatives. Every company has a strategy and Porsche's strategy, just like Apple, Bang & Olufsen, etc, and, alas, BMW, is to create some products that appeal to their core, while others help them achieve true growth in sales and profitability needed for sustainability.

For Apple, they make big ugly Plus-sized iPhones even after they claimed for years that they would never do it as it compromises single-handed use, but here we are because it makes money. For Porsche, they make Cayenne's and Macan's to sell to the masses and hold back the 718s from what they could be so that they can make more money on the higher margin 911. BMW is doing no different.

For BMW, in my opinion, you need to look beyond the noise (X2, 2 Series Active Tourer, etc) to see the gems. For me the gems are still ever present and perhaps this sentiment is because I don't try and actively compare BMW to the "good ol days" when they had 5 models. Times have changed. What do I think are the gems and how are they appealing to enthusiasts?

- M235i and M2, nuff said
- F80 M3 is lighter, faster than predecessor and the only car in its class that comfortably fits 5 with a 6MT offered
- F10 M5 offered with a manual even while Porsche phased it out on their GT3 (only to bring it back later)
- M Track Days offered at $250 - purely a nod to enthusiasts
- Free track day offered with M car purchase at Performance Center
- Not to mention all of the BMW Ultimate Drive events going on year round
- First company to invest in a motorsports oriented electric vehicle (i8) and keep it true to concept
- M135i is apparently brilliant and practical although I've never driven it
- 1M a few years ago was purely a nod to enthusiasts
- Active investment in and actual use of lightweight materials (CFRP) in mass production vehicles

I'm sure list goes on. Your username suggests an interest in Benz, so it's super interesting to hear this from you considering what MB is doing with 43/53 AMG models and proliferating the AMG brand across SUVs, sedans, trucks, etc that don't deserve the association at all. At least we could agree that BMW does that to a much lesser extent. It's easy to criticize but we can also appreciate that there are signs BMW is still there and looking out for us despite needing to keep the lights on with some mass market products. I'm excited for what the future holds and still value the company and look forward to what they offer next.
You bring up some excellent points and I personally do not think BMW has completely lost their way as some believe. Let’s just hope they take a bit more of there cues from Porsche (with return to manuals) with M cars than follow the lead of Audi and Benz.

Last edited by Pic18; 04-02-2018 at 12:32 PM.. Reason: grammar
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      04-03-2018, 07:49 PM   #87
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Quote:
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Rumors are that the next M3 is no manuals and CVT only.
You forgot to mention that it will be diesel and have run-flat all season tires only...
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      04-10-2018, 09:14 AM   #88
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I think maybe the turbo engines have made manuals less appealing
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