[spikecraib]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Too add, I'm pretty sure every hoonnigan car Ken Block has built has a manual transmission.

https://www.hooniganracing.com/garage/

He’s got manual, sequential, CVT and Automatic listed in his garage.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by spikecraib

https://www.hooniganracing.com/garage/

He’s got manual, sequential, CVT and Automatic listed in his garage.

Yeah, a few weeks back I checked after writing that. I'd say that of the cars he uses to do his street hoonigan videos most all are racing transmissions that are sequential manual transmissions. The trucks he jumps seem to have autos/cvt. The point is the cars he most shows off control of are manuals. Mind you most of his hoonigan cars also have separate rear hydraulic brake levers (oh how I wish I had one of those in high school ).

Anyway, manual transmissions give better vehicle control overall vs. automatics, especially the common slushbox used in the majority of cars in the US. I have 40 years of driving manual transmissions under my belt and have yet to drive a realistically-priced sports sedan equipped with an automatic that I find pleasurable to drive and that gives me more control than any plain-jane manual I've ever driven. Yup, automatics now are far better than the GM hydra-Matic introduced in the late 1930's, but they can't see the road and have really no idea when to change gears, either up or down, based on traffic and road conditions; they can only shift automatically when whatever perimeters are programmed into them are reached. My opinion is if your response to that is modern automatics can be shifted via paddles or the gearshift lever, then fine, but if I have to shift the automatic trans to get it to be in the gear I want for the situation I see as the driver, or hold the gear I want, I'd rather just use a real foot-operated manual transmission.

Having the capability to instantly put the driveline in neutral is an advantage in total car control, regardless of what other Posters here think they know, or some dumb-ass driving instructor told them, or think what they think I don't know.

[KTN]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yup, automatics now are far better than the GM hydra-Matic introduced in the late 1930's, but they can't see the road and have really no idea when to change gears, either up or down, based on traffic and road conditions; they can only shift automatically when whatever perimeters are programmed into them are reached.

Actually, a lot of modern automatic transmissions are using GPS information to avoid unnecessary/unwanted shifts ahead of turns, junctions, etc... This is the case in the G20 too, afaik.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by KTN

Actually, a lot of modern automatic transmissions are using GPS information to avoid unnecessary/unwanted shifts ahead of turns, junctions, etc... This is the case in the G20 too, afaik.

My eyesight and left foot are more accurate than the latency and inaccuracy inherent in the GPS even with WAAS enabled. Hopefully the transmission will have some weather mosaic data input as well (I can just look out the windshield)...

[KTN]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

My eyesight and left foot are more accurate than the latency and inaccuracy inherent in the GPS even with WAAS enabled. Hopefully the transmission will have some weather mosaic data input as well (I can just look out the windshield)...

I'm not trying to sway you, as I honestly don't care which one you prefer, as its a personal preference for different situations and I'm not an exclusive "fanboy" of either, as I appreciate both for what they are in a good implementation.

I just pointed to the fact you may not be that up-to-date as you seem to think about the automatic transmissions in use today. I mean the way I see it you'd bring up that beer tastes better "cuz manual transmissions" if all other arguments would be out the window. So no point really diving into features, but don't use something as an argument that's just not true anymore.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Anyway, manual transmissions give better vehicle control overall vs. automatics, especially the common slushbox used in the majority of cars in the US.

This is just another generalization showing you consider every and all automatics as one entity, while that's pretty far from the truth even among "common slushboxes", just as not all manuals are an exact joy to hustle around with on a sporty drive.
You can find faults in everything, since nothing's perfect. The problem is when you're only considering one side of the coin...

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by KTN

I'm not trying to sway you, as I honestly don't care which one you prefer, as its a personal preference for different situations and I'm not an exclusive "fanboy" of either, as I appreciate both for what they are in a good implementation.

I just pointed to the fact you may not be that up-to-date as you seem to think about the automatic transmissions in use today. I mean the way I see it you'd bring up that beer tastes better "cuz manual transmissions" if all other arguments would be out the window. So no point really diving into features, but don't use something as an argument that's just not true anymore.

This is just another generalization showing you consider every and all automatics as one entity, while that's pretty far from the truth even among "common slushboxes", just as not all manuals are an exact joy to hustle around with on a sporty drive.
You can find faults in everything, since nothing's perfect. The problem is when you're only considering one side of the coin...

Since I spend a lot of my free time reading about automotive-related stuff, I'm up to speed on most things automotive. When I was considering buying an ATS over last summer, I fully investigated the GM 8L45 that is in the ATS. My thought is the reliability of the 8L45 should be pretty good since it is a design off-shoot of the GM 8L90 used in the Corvette C7, considering the ATS 2.0T has 295 pound-foot of torque. I know the 10-speed auto now used in most Fords (including the Mustang GT) was co-developed by Ford and GM, which I find quite interesting from an industry standpoint. I hope you know that BMW and GM (with others) co-developed the EV/hybrid auto used in the X5 and GM SUVs, under a US Government-funded initiative to advance EVs; I had quite the interest in the industry implications of that endeavor. I find it appalling BMW joined with Toyota to develop the Z4/Supra, and the fact that the BMW X1 is underpinned by the Mini FWD architecture is laughable since just a few years ago BMW touted it was the only remaining manufacturer that didn't platform share between brands (in response to VW's MBQ platform philosophy)... I also find it hilarious that BMW actually stated FWD architecture allows for a larger cabin because the driveline is all stuffed up front under the hood; something Alec Issigonis figured out nearly 60 years ago for mass-produced cars, and that most of the industry (outside of the US) adopted in the 1960's for small cars.

But in this thread I've been very specific in what type of transmissions I've been discussing; ones with a torque converter. I've been very specific in what cars I've been discussing (Mustang, E90, G20-BMW, Caddy ATS, "reasonably-priced", etc.). Other people tried to point out I'm wrong by mentioning Ferrari, DCTs, SMGs, etc., which is not the transmission type used in the BMW G20. You say that automatics have gotten "better" (at shifting automatically is what you mean), which is very true; but my point is a manually-shifted automatic is not as good at shifting manually as a manual transmission is; and that includes the reason the transmission is being shifted as well as the mechanical action of the shift. In response, you even pointed out some automatics are shifted by the computer based on GPS location data, which is neat, but GPS is not as accurate as the human sitting at the helm of the vehicle. And my weather mosaic comment was tongue-in-cheek to make the point the automatic transmission doesn't know the weather at the exact spot the car is at, but the driver does. *And to say it again, to get the best control over the vehicle, if I have to paddle-shift an automatic, I'd rather just have a real 3-pedal car. If others prefer to have the option of an automatically-shifting transmission in such dire situations such as traffic, with the option to shift it manually when they want to (no traffic?), good for them, but for the 8-sp ZF 8HP in the F30 (and G20), which I've put about 1,000 miles behind as loaners, I just don't find the manual-shifting mode anywhere near emulating a real manual transmission.* Add in the issue that you can't get that type of manumatic in neutral instantly like you can a real foot-operated clutch manual trans, my opinion is automatics suck. . I've passed on two well-discounted ATS because they had an automatic; one a V6 Sport and a 2.0T base.

Being the BMW G20 is not going to offer a manual I see no reason (for me) to consider one. I think it is an error on BMW's part, just as much as I think when Cadillac didn't offer the ATS with the N/A V6 with a manual transmission option it was a marketing error as well.

And to be completely fair, I think manual transmissions suck at shifting automatically.

* - * = both-sides-of-the-coin part...

[KTN]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

And to be completely fair, I think manual transmissions suck at shifting automatically.

Well, that's something. You're warming up to autos already I see.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by KTN

Well, that's something. You're warming up to autos already I see.

TBH, I'm really considering an EV to replace my E90 (keeping it of course!) because after driving a few, and knowing manuals are eventually going away, EVs are an automatic that behaves as a manual. Because the torque delivery of an electric motor is so different than ICE, the one-speed trans in most EVs (Leaf, Bolt, Volt, Tesla, etc.) are always in gear and a great to drive IMO.

I'm hoping GM takes the Bolt platform to a small sports-oriented sedan. Wishful thinking on my part.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I've owned a BMW 3-series for 30+ years (4 cars in all including the Z3 and Z4, which are based on the 3-series chassis - three of that I still have). I've spent several thousands of miles behind the wheel 3 different E21's (the first BMW I ever drove circa 1978). A proper 3-series has a manual transmission; the G20 doesn't offer a manual trans in the US.

BMW has become nothing more than a purveyor of poser sports sedans (M-brand excluded) and over-powered gaudy SUVs, all built upon a sports sedan reputation earned in the 1970's and strengthened in the 1980's and somewhat maintained during the 1990's, until Lexus came upon the automotive marketplace. It then chased Lexus for the luxury crown, when Lexus was actually targeting Mercedes Benz. While it's perfectly fine for BMW to chase the luxury and SUV trends, it should still offer a well-balanced, non-M brand 3 series with a manual transmission.

BMW would probably be acquired by VW or GM or something, if they listened to dinosaurs...

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Nah, you don't really understand the capability of control a manual transmission provides the driver, so I understand your point of view, but you lack to understand mine. For vehicle control by the driver, the manual transmission is still superior. Crying I'm not. I just suggest that BMW should provide the option of a manual transmission outside of an M car. If it was true to its heritage it would do so. We are not yet at a time of driving automation that a manually operated transmission is defunct. We are decades away from that.

Germany has put a ban on all new gasoline & diesel engine cars starting 2030, and here you're trying to argue the merits of manuals, which can't even work with electric engines. Also, this is not rocket science, if people don't buy it, BMW won't make it. People don't buy manuals.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

People don't buy manuals.

I realize I'm asking for it, but what species would I be in that case?

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Germany has put a ban on all new gasoline & diesel engine cars starting 2030, and here you're trying to argue the merits of manuals, which can't even work with electric engines. Also, this is not rocket science, if people don't buy it, BMW won't make it. People don't buy manuals.

The points have been made but to a righteous USian who thinks the rest of the world exists for his amusement, your points will bounce off him like so many pebbles off an advancing rhino.

The odds of, shall we way, some people here buying or owning a BMW at any point in future are obviously zero, and one wonders if they will just melt away, or continue banging their one-note drum until the ARPAnet is finally - mercy me! - closed off again after its disastrous experiment with the unwashed

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

EVs are an automatic that behaves as a manual

Oh FFS. Ker-plunk.

[KTN]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I realize I'm asking for it, but what species would I be in that case?

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by KTN

Guess I'd better phone home for guidance!

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Guess I'd better phone home for guidance!

Make sure you dial the correct number...

He plays a beautiful one-note drum made from Dinosaur skin.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

BMW would probably be acquired by VW or GM or something, if they listened to dinosaurs...

Well BMW has already hooked up with Lexus, er... I mean, Toyota now haven't they...

[Transfer]

Good god you manual old farts are really loons. Two things... if you drive your auto in auto mode you're doing it wrong and no one does that unless loafing around with their mom or in traffic. If you think a 2018+ M automatic, M DCT, or PDK do not allow for as much control of the transmission/drivetrain as a manual, just stop pretending you've driven one.

I get that many people still like a manual and that's fine but don't pretend like modern sport autos are a downgrade or something. They are generally vastly superior to a manual in every aspect except no clutch and can't skip gears.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Transfer

Good god you manual old farts are really loons. Two things... if you drive your auto in auto mode you're doing it wrong and no one does that unless loafing around with their mom or in traffic. If you think a 2018+ M automatic, M DCT, or PDK do not allow for as much control of the transmission/drivetrain as a manual, just stop pretending you've driven one.

I get that many people still like a manual and that's fine but don't pretend like modern sport autos are a downgrade or something. They are generally vastly superior to a manual in every aspect except no clutch and can't skip gears.

Come on just admit it, you're scared you'll money-shift a manual in your pricey M, so you wimp out and get the DCT.

From your own ///M people:

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well BMW has already hooked up with Lexus, er... I mean, Toyota now haven't they...

No, they didn't. They partnered on one platform.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

No, they didn't. They partnered on one platform.

That's how it starts...

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

That's how it starts...

They did the same with Porsche though.

Guess Porsche is a sell out to you as well.

And you posted all through that thread so you are well aware.