[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

So, are you saying your point of view regarding the F30 is based on a 2013 320i? Have you driven a properly spec'd F30? Like you, I've driven BMWs for 30 years, have of those with manual transmission. My nicely spec'd F30 with M-sport, DHP, go flat tires, and Dinan Shockware is an amazing little sports sedan. I drove 5 series before the F30, including 2 awesome E39 540's, and my particular F30 is the best car of all of them. I got a F30 320 as a loner once and there is a huge difference between that base car and my nicely spec'd car. So my question is, have you driven an F30 with DHP with m suspension on go flat tires? I've read all the posts in this thread and I know I'm going to get butchered for actually loving the F30. Too bad. From the early days when BMW was a niche player, catering to the driving enthusiast was good enough. BMW is now a global brand and a major force in the autio industry. They cannot succeed by building all of their cars for the less than 1% who frequent these forums and speak of numb steering and the need for manual transmissions. They are too busy selling great cars to the masses. According to their sales, they have been pretty darn successful with that approach.

We've had 6 years now of E90 owners visiting this F30 forum and talking about how bad the F30 is and how great the E90 remains. Many of the car mags drank that cool aid too. BMW has lost its way, blah, blah, blah. My brother has an E90 335i and its a nice car for sure. No arguement with that. But, my car is better in every single way that matters to me.

This forum is full of F30 owners who love their cars. Many are past 100,000 miles now with zero or few problems. That is the true legacy of this model, not a few E90 owners telling us how horrible our cars are. Will the G20 be better? It had better be. Just like the F30 is better thanthe E90. The market is fierce and BMW knows it. Bottom line: Its a great time to be a car buyer. Thanks for listening.

Okay, well this is a G20 Forum not an F30 Forum first off, so relax for a sec. Yes, the 2013 320i with a sport package is what used to be a "properly equipped" 3-series and was all that was needed to attain the legacy BMW driving experience, but yet I found it drove worse than a 2013 Buick. That's what I was commenting on. That experience followed a week with a 2013 F30 335i, which had followed a week with an ATS 2.0T performance trim (doesn't chnage the suspension). The Cadillac drove the best of all three and was even better than my E90 in some respects. My E90 is a base car with a sport package and it gives me the legacy BMW driving experience. I owned a 1989 E30 325i without a sport package and it gave me the BMW driving experience and it had a real limited-slip differential, which the E90 didn't offer. The E30's M20B25 was a gem of an engine, as is the N52. But IMO the E21 320 was a better driver's car and had the best feed back compared to the E30 and E90. Even slow as the E21 was with the M10, it still was capable of excellent road manners. The E36 didn't stray far from the E30 tree based on the few I've driven (I own a Z3 BTW). Of the few E46 I've driven it still had the BMW DNA.

The F30 was a marked change in driving dynamics, far drifted from the legacy BMW 3-series driving experience. Anyone familiar with the 3-series over decades of experience with them says this; it's not kool aid, just reality. Even BMW addressed the issue in 2015 by redesigning the front suspension geometry. The F30 320i with a sport package should drive great out of the box, regardless if it has tunable shock damping or not; but it doesn't.

[ScottAndrew]

I find that it's poor or low-talent drivers who blame their tools. It also made me hoot to hear "Camaro" mentioned in same breath as "3 series". I guess if all you ever have is a hammer...

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by MT4life
I would drive a Camaro insteadh of 320i, I would rather drive a Honda Accord Sport than a 320i. It's an embarrassment to a BMW and was only brought here for chikcs with iPhones and IG accounts so they can do selfies and OMG I got a BMW posts while paying 279/mo in car rent

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

Neither of your alternatives are available as realistic options. The Accord and Camry died decades ago. Sales of 320 variants outstrip Camaros by a factor of around 100 to 1 on this side of the vast gulf. Some embarrassment!

I agree, much better to pay 399/month to borrow a car from the rental company with a bigger engine and spoilers, than borrowing it for 279/month. It shows your a man of, well, another hunnit twenny bucks.

I am not about to get into a Camaro/ or Accord vs BMW argument but the new Camaro is a very good sports coupe. Here is what Car and Driver had to say about it.

"It's quicker, grippier, and more badass than regular Camaros, one of the best performance coupes available regardless of price."


And here is what Car and Driver had to say about the Accord:

"The Accord is a mature sports sedan, tranquil and composed when you want it to be but ready and willing to play when asked. With a sense of harmony between the primary controls and a fluidity to the responses of the chassis, the Accord engenders confidence. The steering is a bit too light and short on feel—the Civic’s helm is better in both regards—but the Accord’s more relaxed tuning strikes us as appropriate for this larger car. Exquisitely dialed-in damping strikes a near perfect balance between compliance and tautness, giving the Accord wheel control and impact absorption that shames many cars with luxury badges. Our ear also tells us that the new car’s cabin is more hushed than before. Even with its longtime archrival at the top of its game, though, Honda appears to have hit yet another home run. Like nearly all the Accords that came before it, the newest example remains a beautifully engineered, high-quality, and affordable automobile "



I am not implying that Accords or Camaros are better (or worse) cars than BMW but from all indications they are all very good cars.

I don't think BMW has the edge over other brands that they once did but that is more due to other brands stepping up their game than BMW moving backwards. I don't see this as a bad thing as it gives buyers more choices and it gives BMW a strong incentive to step up its game.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I don't think BMW has the edge over other brands that they once did but that is more due to other brands stepping up their game than BMW moving backwards. I don't see this as a bad thing as it gives buyers more choices and it gives BMW a strong incentive to step up its game.

Exactly! It is how I see it. Many more decent cars around in our specific markets, (USA or Europe).

Problem is, where can BMW work their magic these days, when there are so many different expectations from a very wide customer base? What we do know, it won't simply be enthusiast based decision making.

[MT4life]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

Neither of your alternatives are available as realistic options. The Accord and Camry died decades ago. Sales of 320 variants outstrip Camaros by a factor of around 100 to 1 on this side of the vast gulf. Some embarrassment!

I agree, much better to pay 399/month to borrow a car from the rental company with a bigger engine and spoilers, than borrowing it for 279/month. It shows your a man of, well, another hunnit twenny bucks.

I don't know where to go from here "The Accord and Camry died decades ago". Camry is number 1 selling car in US and Accord is not too far behind it. Let's just agree to disagree. By the way Camaro doesn't lease well and a decent one cannot be had for 399/month without a huge cap cost reduction. I guarantee you the percentage of purchased Camaro's far outweigh the percentage of 320i's that weren't rented..... Anyway, carry on

[KTN]

Originally Posted by MT4life

It's not a 3-er. It's not the same designation F30. It's not on the same list with all other 3s on bmwusa. It's not in the same configurator with all other 3s. It's not a 3 series sedan I don't care how you slice. It might be loosely based on f30 but I read it shares almost nothing with f30. It's like saying Cayenne Turbo is the same thing as Toureg.

So yes, in USA, 2018 3 series sedan is the last 3 series sedan or 3-er with Manual Transmission.

Drove home today from work, smiled the whole time like an idiot - God I missed MT

Yeah, by that logic I guess an F31 is not a 3-series either, because it's not an F30. Like I said whatever floats your boat, I'm done at this point.

[captainaudio]

I find it somewhat ironic when someone is critical of someone else who buys a BMW "for the badge" or doesn't buy the "right" BMW and then proceeds to look down on those who buy "lesser" cars.

I makes me question exactly who is the "Poseur".

A true enthusiast appreciates a wide variety of cars.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I find it somewhat ironic when someone is critical of someone else who buys a BMW "for the badge" or doesn't buy the "right" BMW and then proceeds to look down on those who buy "lesser" cars.

I makes me question exactly who is the "Poseur".

A true enthusiast appreciates a wide variety of cars.

The people who look down on others for getting a "lesser" car than themselves are the ones with the real problems. If that is how you figure out how well youv'e done in life well I guess we should all feel sorry for them, as that is really sad.

I honestly tend to think the people who get say an a3/x1/320i types tend to be more like... well I wanted something nice for once, and I'm getting something a littler premium because I've been made to think this is premium and its a bit nicer .

I don't see those types hanging it over people below them nearly as much as some people who get that like slightly above premium but not ferrari level crazy types in the M4/c63/rs5 tier.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I am not about to get into a Camaro/ or Accord vs BMW argument but the new Camaro is a very good sports coupe. Here is what Car and Driver had to say about it.

"It's quicker, grippier, and more badass than regular Camaros, one of the best performance coupes available regardless of price."


And here is what Car and Driver had to say about the Accord:

"The Accord is a mature sports sedan, tranquil and composed when you want it to be but ready and willing to play when asked. With a sense of harmony between the primary controls and a fluidity to the responses of the chassis, the Accord engenders confidence. The steering is a bit too light and short on feel—the Civic's helm is better in both regards—but the Accord's more relaxed tuning strikes us as appropriate for this larger car. Exquisitely dialed-in damping strikes a near perfect balance between compliance and tautness, giving the Accord wheel control and impact absorption that shames many cars with luxury badges. Our ear also tells us that the new car's cabin is more hushed than before. Even with its longtime archrival at the top of its game, though, Honda appears to have hit yet another home run. Like nearly all the Accords that came before it, the newest example remains a beautifully engineered, high-quality, and affordable automobile "



I am not implying that Accords or Camaros are better (or worse) cars than BMW but from all indications they are all very good cars.

I don't think BMW has the edge over other brands that they once did but that is more due to other brands stepping up their game than BMW moving backwards. I don't see this as a bad thing as it gives buyers more choices and it gives BMW a strong incentive to step up its game.

I wonder how much money C&D got paid by American Honda to write such a puff piece on the Accord. Allow me to give you a different perspective on this current "Award winning"
Accord: it is an overrated piece of junk and this is according to an ASE technician of 25 years that works on them at the local dealer day in and day out.

Those things are coming out of Marysville with all kinds of QC issues... one notable problem is drivetrain vibration felt on the car when in gear and seems to be a problem that plagues CVT equipped Accords (CR-Vs also affected) with no satisfactory resolution. A family member has a blender Accord and dealer's says... they all do it and there is nothing they can do to fix it.

Take sometime to peruse the Honda forums to see the complaints these award winning and wonderful can do no wrong cars is doing to Honda's reputation of reliability. It is believed that Honda's quality has slipped below that of Nissan.

Sorry I like C&D but to me they are just entertainment value puff pieces passed as automotive journalism. Miss the days of Brock Yates and Caaba Csere.

Oh and ditto for the Camaro. It may drive nice but it is another questionable GM product (Been there done that).

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I find it somewhat ironic when someone is critical of someone else who buys a BMW "for the badge" or doesn't buy the "right" BMW and then proceeds to look down on those who buy "lesser" cars.

I makes me question exactly who is the "Poseur".

A true enthusiast appreciates a wide variety of cars.

I drove a fair share of 320s and I believe it is a fine automobile for its intended purpose: Daily grind of commuting.

Let's be honest here... With the traffic gridlock of most major US cities any car with 180-250HP is more than sufficient for 95% of the population.

Cars with sub 4 second 0-60 times and excess of over 300-400HP are overkill in the urban setting. I get it bragging rights and all that jazz but most (Unless taken to a closed track) will never get to experience what the car can really accomplish.

I simply can not get with the hate towards the 320 and the vulgar stereotyping of their owners.

[Veliladon]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Exactly! It is how I see it. Many more decent cars around in our specific markets, (USA or Europe).

Problem is, where can BMW work their magic these days, when there are so many different expectations from a very wide customer base? What we do know, it won't simply be enthusiast based decision making.

I'm in this exact same boat. 50% of my miles are in my wife's E90 and it's an absolute delight to drive. I was looking at an G20 as my next car and I ran through the configuration a dozen times and each time I came to the same conclusion.

If I get a not-BMW I can get a twin turbo V6 for the same price that BMW wants to sell me a turbo 4. And a lot of these cars are just as great to drive as the E90 or even more so. It's a hard stretch to swallow having to order ZPP to get the privilege of paying $1700 to order ZDY when all the non-luxury manufactures are providing these same sorts of features on trims that cost less than $30,000. I can walk into a Hyundai dealership and pick up a base G70 that is five grand less than the list cost of a G20 and includes a ridiculous laundry list of features that if forced to add through the ridiculous package system would barely keep a G20 under $50K.

It's just kind of disappointing. I would have loved to stay in the BMW family of cars. I just can't justify the massive gulf in pricing to stay. Not when the stuff below is so good.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by Veliladon

I'm in this exact same boat. 50% of my miles are in my wife's E90 and it's an absolute delight to drive. I was looking at an G20 as my next car and I ran through the configuration a dozen times and each time I came to the same conclusion.

If I get a not-BMW I can get a twin turbo V6 for the same price that BMW wants to sell me a turbo 4. And a lot of these cars are just as great to drive as the E90 or even more so. It's a hard stretch to swallow having to order ZPP to get the privilege of paying $1700 to order ZDY when all the non-luxury manufactures are providing these same sorts of features on trims that cost less than $30,000. I can walk into a Hyundai dealership and pick up a base G70 that is five grand less than the list cost of a G20 and includes a ridiculous laundry list of features that if forced to add through the ridiculous package system would barely keep a G20 under $50K.

It's just kind of disappointing. I would have loved to stay in the BMW family of cars. I just can't justify the massive gulf in pricing to stay. Not when the stuff below is so good.

Buy CPO 1 year old or less. 20%+ savings over sticker right off the bat. It is foolish to buy these cars with zero miles. Let the first repentant buyer take the initial hit of depreciation and enjoy the savings on what it is a practically brand new car.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

Buy CPO 1 year old or less. 20%+ savings over sticker right off the bat. It is foolish to buy these cars with zero miles. Let the first repentant buyer take the initial hit of depreciation and enjoy the savings on what it is a practically brand new car.

That's one of the best ways to get into a well optioned BMW and enjoy sensible running costs. Has allowed me to have a much better car, without wasting too much money on new.

I managed to get my current car with 40% off list, at just over a year old and 6k miles. One BMW UK HQ driver, for a few months.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Veliladon

If I get a not-BMW I can get a twin turbo V6 for the same price that BMW wants to sell me a turbo 4. And a lot of these cars are just as great to drive as the E90 or even more so. It's a hard stretch to swallow having to order ZPP to get the privilege of paying $1700 to order ZDY when all the non-luxury manufactures are providing these same sorts of features on trims that cost less than $30,000. I can walk into a Hyundai dealership and pick up a base G70 that is five grand less than the list cost of a G20 and includes a ridiculous laundry list of features that if forced to add through the ridiculous package system would barely keep a G20 under $50K.

It's just kind of disappointing. I would have loved to stay in the BMW family of cars. I just can't justify the massive gulf in pricing to stay. Not when the stuff below is so good.

I believe the difference today, compared to years ago, is the quality of the competition.

Years back we could get cars that drove as well, much better optioned, for something like 30% less than an equivalent performing BMW. But... the quality and durability wasn't there. Made it easier to justify the higher costs of the BMW.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

That's one of the best ways to get into a well optioned BMW and enjoy sensible running costs. Has allowed me to have a much better car, without wasting too much money on new.

I managed to get my current car with 40% off list, at just over a year old and 6k miles. One BMW UK HQ driver, for a few months.

Excellent purchase!

That's how you can best justify late model BMW ownership from a fiscally responsible perspective.

It takes time and patience but you can always find a fresh sample only months old with a few hundred/thousand miles still with the new car smell and the excellent warranty to boot.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I believe the difference today, compared to years ago, is the quality of the competition.

Years back we could get cars that drove as well, much better optioned, for something like 30% less than an equivalent performing BMW. But... the quality and durability wasn't there. Made it easier to justify the higher costs of the BMW.

That may be but....

While I still believe you pay a premium for the brand name (as it the case with luxury goods) I also believe you are getting a vehicle that is inherently better built and safer than say the Korean competition.

Anyone can make a decent car these days and add screens and gadgets and call it a day. But the problem is that corners are still being cut in those seemingly "cheaper" alternatives and unfortunately this is done often in places that you don't see. You always get what you paid for. There is no free lunch sort of speak.

[Veliladon]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

I also believe you are getting a vehicle that is inherently better built and safer than say the Korean competition.

As long as you buy ZCV, ZPP, ZDA, and ZDY.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

Buy CPO 1 year old or less. 20%+ savings over sticker right off the bat. It is foolish to buy these cars with zero miles. Let the first repentant buyer take the initial hit of depreciation and enjoy the savings on what it is a practically brand new car.

If what you said really made sense, no one would ever buy a new car...

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If what you said really made sense, no one would ever buy a new car...

You lease new cars. You buy slightly pre-loved...

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

Buy CPO 1 year old or less. 20%+ savings over sticker right off the bat. It is foolish to buy these cars with zero miles. Let the first repentant buyer take the initial hit of depreciation and enjoy the savings on what it is a practically brand new car.

20%+ savings off MSRP is not that appealing, as local incentives used to be around 20% for brand new cars with 5 miles too(even custom orders).

[upsidedownfunnel]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

20%+ savings off MSRP is not that appealing, as local incentives used to be around 20% for brand new cars with 5 miles too(even custom orders).

Let's not exaggerate. It's certainly possible to get a new car that's been sitting on the lot or from a dealership desperate to get rid of a car at 20% off. But it's not common or easy. Buying a $55k MSRP car at $44k is a great deal no matter how you cut it.

I'd expect a bit more from a used car, though. I'd rather buy a new car at 15% off MSRP than a used 1 year old car at 25% off MSRP.

[upsidedownfunnel]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

You lease new cars. You buy slightly pre-loved...

If I'm planning on keeping a car for a long time (>6 years), I'm definitely buying new. Considering how long you'll own the car, it's not worth saving a few thousand bucks without knowing if the car was broken in/driven properly. Especially if it's a manual transmission car.