[Wills2]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

Rich American will class you as pauper undeserving of luxury brand badge like BMW

If they got charged the same for fuel as we do there would be a break down in civil society.

[mt1984]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Having done so many times, (E9x model forward), believe me, most would opt for the AT out of choice. The 20d works so much better attached to the AT. Can be very thrashy in MT form, particularly starting off, accelerating through the gears. AT gives the more refined drivetrain. The 30d engines are much more refined, but still favour the AT.

I own a 2018 F31 320d xdrive with a 6 speed manual. I've tried an AT while shopping for a car and I admit that it is very smooth and fast and arguably one of the best if not the best AT out there. However, I thought that the car somehow lost that feeling of being a powerful turbo diesel engine with 190 hp and 400 Nm of torque. When I accelerated, the car reached 60 mph in no time, but I did not feel that acceleration in a proper way. It was so smooth and calm that I couldn't believe I was driving an engine with 400 Nm. Then I decided to try out a manual, and oh boy... what a difference in term of feeling that was. The car really felt more powerful and alive. 15 years ago I was a proud owner of E46 328i with similar power output (193 hp) to that of a stock 2018 320d. And I must admit that if I forget the engine sound, I feel almost the same satisfaction when driving 320d that I felt in my 328i. The real life performance is practicaly the same.

I've also tried 2018 320i when I was buying the car but there really was no contest. The 320d crushes it in terms of real life performance.

I'm very happy with the car and I think that the G20 320d could be a really nice upgrade.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by mt1984

I own a 2018 F31 320d xdrive with a 6 speed manual. I've tried an AT while shopping for a car and I admit that it is very smooth and fast and arguably one of the best if not the best AT out there. However, I thought that the car somehow lost that feeling of being a powerful turbo diesel engine with 190 hp and 400 Nm of torque. When I accelerated, the car reached 60 mph in no time, but I did not feel that acceleration in a proper way. It was so smooth and calm that I couldn't believe I was driving an engine with 400 Nm. Then I decided to try out a manual, and oh boy... what a difference in term of feeling that was. The car really felt more powerful and alive. 15 years ago I was a proud owner of E46 328i with similar power output (193 hp) to that of a stock 2018 320d. And I must admit that if I forget the engine sound, I feel almost the same satisfaction when driving 320d that I felt in my 328i. The real life performance is practicaly the same.

I've also tried 2018 320i when I was buying the car but there really was no contest. The 320d crushes it in terms of real life performance.

"Feelings" are one thing you can't debate, of course. A car could get to 60 mph 3 sec in a smooth, anodyne way and not "feel" any more special than a fast-ish rollercoaster on the straight bit at the beginning... even if its performance blows everything else that "feels" fast into the weeds. So there's nothing really to debate.

I also find the 320d eerily quick even if its measured (not felt) performance is only a few ticks ahead of the 320i. But also included in feelings are what you hear, which is why I'd also take a more exciting petrol over a smooth, linear diesel.

[cdgatti]

What do they do to the fuel between the Middle East and EU??? Why is the price so jacked up??

[cdgatti]

Originally Posted by Wills2

If they got charged the same for fuel as we do there would be a break down in civil society.

See France right now.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by cdgatti

What do they do to the fuel between the Middle East and EU??? Why is the price so jacked up??

We are taxed heavily on fuel in the UK. Same in many European countries.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by cdgatti

What do they do to the fuel between the Middle East and EU??? Why is the price so jacked up??

Well, it moves, so the government taxes it... "we" use it to pay for social cohesion, as you can see in France, and world-class health and railway systems, as you can see in the UK .

There is a fuel duty at about £0.58 a litre. VAT at 20% is applied to the price of the fuel and the duty as well, and of course you are taxed on the income used to pay for that fuel as well. A triple whammy.

Strip the VAT and fuel duty off the price you pay - about £1.35 a litre - and you get to 54p, which is pretty much what you pay in the USA.

[AP]

Hence why you see a lot of people in Europe run in diesel cars or smaller petrol engine (ie 2 litre or less)
An example presumably why bmw U.K. decided on not selling the 550i as the number of sales of the previous f10 550i are incredibly small.


I'd say anything over 2 litres in the U.K. would be considered a large engine these days

[jdrally]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

Well, it moves, so the government taxes it... "we" use it to pay for social cohesion, as you can see in France, and world-class health and railway systems, as you can see in the UK .

There is a fuel duty at about £0.58 a litre. VAT at 20% is applied to the price of the fuel and the duty as well, and of course you are taxed on the income used to pay for that fuel as well. A triple whammy.

Strip the VAT and fuel duty off the price you pay - about £1.35 a litre - and you get to 54p, which is pretty much what you pay in the USA.

It's pity they don't tax aircraft also, give us car drivers a break.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by jdrally

It's pity they don't tax aircraft also, give us car drivers a break.

They do; Britain’s air passenger duty is the highest in the whole world. Nowhere taxes its people as much as the U.K., yet give so little back. And they like to tax abroad, too; so you make sure that the minute some grasping British fucker has a go at taxing someone on US soil... well, u know what to do .

[jdrally]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

They do; Britain’s air passenger duty is the highest in the whole world. Nowhere taxes its people as much as the U.K., yet give so little back. And they like to tax abroad, too; so you make sure that the minute some grasping British fucker has a go at taxing someone on US soil... well, u know what to do .

Seems Scottish Highlands are exempt.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by MT4life

Why do you all buy diesel cars over there? They sound like shit, after a few miles start smoking black and aren't particularly fast.
Are they that much cheaper or double MPG? You're buying a BMW are you paying tatt close of an attention to fuel economy?

Actually, most comparative tests (in Europe) inverse the question: why go for the 330i when the 320d has more grunt and consumes about 25% less?

OK, 330i has more top-end, but under +90% of the conditions, 320d is perfect. Also, come to German highroads, you'll see them easily cruise at +120mph in all serenity! Remember that even Sebastien Vettel (former F1 world champ) drove 320d as a daily driver.

Also, I don't know whether you're aware, this planet is going to shreds because of the carbon dioxide that we all pump into the atmosphere with our right foot. In Europe this has been long translated to fuel taxes, not yet entirely in USA.

[KTN]

Originally Posted by KoenG

why go for the 330i when the 320d has more grunt

Had.

The B48 in the G20 330i has the higher hp figure with the same torque of the 320d, plus that's also available from a slightly lower RPM. (we're talking numbers on paper obviously)
Of course the fuel economy you mentioned is still in play.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Actually, most comparative tests (in Europe) inverse the question: why go for the 330i when the 320d has more grunt and consumes about 25% less?

The 320d's engine is efficient and powerful but is, in UK tests at least, considered loud and a bit agricultural. It's not the slam-dunk it was in the past. Hearing a diesel rowing through its frantically short gears (3rd is done by 95 km/h) isn't an especially pleasant experience, but YMMV of course.

Now the 330i's engine is not the last word in character either, but is well liked in the 230i and has a lot more go than the diesel. 0-100 5.8 vs 7.something; the 30i reaches 160 km/h several seconds ahead of the diesel. The diesel is quick, and feels quick, but with both cars on a flat pedal, it can't keep up with the 30i.

Consumption, of course the 320d wins.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

The 320d's engine is efficient and powerful but is, in UK tests at least, considered loud and a bit agricultural. It's not the slam-dunk it was in the past. Hearing a diesel rowing through its frantically short gears (3rd is done by 95 km/h) isn't an especially pleasant experience, but YMMV of course.

Now the 330i's engine is not the last word in character either, but is well liked in the 230i and has a lot more go than the diesel. 0-100 5.8 vs 7.something; the 30i reaches 160 km/h several seconds ahead of the diesel. The diesel is quick, and feels quick, but with both cars on aflat pedal, it can't keep up with the 30i.

Consumption, of course the 320d wins.

Yes, but you know... figures are one thing, real driving and feel is different. Diesel has clearly shown us that! Of course a 230i is MUCH faster, with a serious margin!

The thing is, I can choose how I drive it, and the diesel is a peach in letting you modulate your drive. It's not ok for a hooligan drive when I want to lite my tires in power drifts, but it is splendid in daily driving, when I'am queueing and where low and sometimes even mid range tq matter.

Or... I'am just getting old (but still loved to trash the new M5 a few months back)!!

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

They do; Britain’s air passenger duty is the highest in the whole world. Nowhere taxes its people as much as the U.K., yet give so little back. And they like to tax abroad, too; so you make sure that the minute some grasping British fucker has a go at taxing someone on US soil... well, u know what to do .

They don't at all, you're referring to air passenger duty, but not at all to fuel taxes!!! Else Ryanair wouldn't be offering flights for 100€!! Travelling by flight is a factor 5 to 10 too cheap!!! It's even heavily subsidised!

[KTN]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Yes, but you know... figures are one thing, real driving and feel is different. Diesel has clearly shown us that! Of course a 230i is MUCH faster, with a serious margin!

The thing is, I can choose how I drive it, and the diesel is a peach in letting you modulate your drive. It's not ok for a hooligan drive when I want to lite my tires in power drifts, but it is splendid in daily driving, when I'am queueing and where low and sometimes even mid range tq matter.

Or... I'am just getting old (but still loved to trash the new M5 a few months back)!!

Of course feel can be different, but still...

G20 320d: 190HP@4000 / 400NM@1750-2500
G20 330i: 258HP@5000-6500 / 400NM@1550-4400

So while of course generally it still holds true diesels offer more torque, but specifically between the 20d and 30i engines that you mentioned, that's really not the case anymore, at least on paper.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by KoenG

They don't at all, you're referring to air passenger duty, but not at all to fuel taxes!!! Else Ryanair wouldn't be offering flights for 100€!! Travelling by flight is a factor 5 to 10 too cheap!!! It's even heavily subsidised!

APD is the only way the U.K. Government can tax travellers, as aviation fuel is not taxed locally by international agreement. And it is by definition the highest in the world. If there’s one thing the U.K. Govt could do it would be to tax the hell out of aviation fuel as soon as it was able. You are taxed until you squeal in Britain and there is no pretending otherwise.

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by KTN

Of course feel can be different, but still...

G20 320d: 190HP@4000 / 400NM@1750-2500
G20 330i: 258HP@5000-6500 / 400NM@1550-4400

So while of course generally it still holds true diesels offer more torque, but specifically between the 20d and 30i engines that you mentioned, that's really not the case anymore, at least on paper.

Yes, Finally BMW is prepared to let the 330i breathe a but more. I never understood why they where so conservative in the transition from F30 328i to F30 330i (+5kW/+0Nm), clearly they kept it on a short leash. And now, that is finally dealt with.

But since the car weighs a bit less and the engine gained some, why are the G20 performance figures not better than they were for the F30?

[KTN]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Yes, Finally BMW is prepared to let the 330i breathe a but more. I never understood why they where so conservative in the transition from F30 328i to F30 330i (+5kW/+0Nm), clearly they kept it on a short leash. And now, that is finally dealt with.

But since the car weighs a bit less and the engine gained some, why are the G20 performance figures not better than they were for the F30?

That's also something I wondered when I first saw the stats.

We'll just have to see what 0-100kph telemetrics tests show once more hands-on tests start coming out.

I guess it could be BMW being overly conservative with the stated figure, or also that the weight is actually on par, or even a bit above the previous model when optioned up. Or could be a combination of both.

Also interesting is that the figure stated for the 320d improved compared to the F30 320d figure, while the engine stats didn't change. Meanwhile, the 330i had a performance bump, yet the 0-100kph remains the same.

[oz555]

Originally Posted by KTN

That's also something I wondered when I first saw the stats.

We'll just have to see what 0-100kph telemetrics tests show once more hands-on tests start coming out.

I guess it could be BMW being overly conservative with the stated figure, or also that the weight is actually on par, or even a bit above the previous model when optioned up. Or could be a combination of both.

Also interesting is that the figure stated for the 320d improved compared to the F30 320d figure, while the engine stats didn't change. Meanwhile, the 330i had a performance bump, yet the 0-100kph remains the same.

G20 320d has better acceleration 0-100kmh than F30. It is now 6,8s. I think the reason is second smaller turbo. We'll see VBOX readings.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Yes, Finally BMW is prepared to let the 330i breathe a but more. I never understood why they where so conservative in the transition from F30 328i to F30 330i (+5kW/+0Nm), clearly they kept it on a short leash. And now, that is finally dealt with.

But since the car weighs a bit less and the engine gained some, why are the G20 performance figures not better than they were for the F30?

Taller gearing, and I suspect better economy. The car does not need more power in this segment, but it does need greater fuel efficiency.

Personally I'd be quite happy with this tune in my 230i, I don't need more bhp that's for sure.