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      01-25-2019, 05:06 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Buying an M car off a lot instead of ordering Euro Delivery is madness.
Indeed, fully agree. I’ve just completed my 6th one (not all for M cars).

Would you happen to know if BMW will continue offering the Euro Delivery program? Recent trends are worrying...
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      01-25-2019, 07:07 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
You mean the way Porsche does? I believe they’re over the 500BHP mark currently.

Anyway, their cars weigh significantly less and so can make do with much less torque.
I did forget about the GT3. The GT3 does cost quite a bit more money, though they are definitely a fantastic exception.
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      01-25-2019, 07:19 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynguldyn View Post
Buying an M car off a lot instead of ordering Euro Delivery is madness.
Indeed, fully agree. I've just completed my 6th one (not all for M cars).

Would you happen to know if BMW will continue offering the Euro Delivery program? Recent trends are worrying...
Are you referring to Audi dropping the program recently?

I believe Audi highlighted the manufacturing locations of many of the models outside of Germany as justification for terminating the program (just like you can't ED an X car built in South Carolina).

I bet the Audi program headwinds were compounded by the participation rate.

As a member of PCA, BMW CCA and ACNA, I was surprised to see how small the membership of Audi club is compared to Porsche and BMW. PCA claims 130,000 members and BMW CCA reports 75,000 active members. ACNA hovers around 10,000 and I believe that's including Canada.

Anecdotally, Porsche and BMW forums seem full of ED journals but the Audi comps (audizine and Audiworld) don't have near the volume of Euro Delivery threads.

I know this is a broad statement but I'd argue Audi trails BMW and Porsche in enthusiast following hence a lower likely take rate on European Delivery.

Audi also terminated the program previously before the most recent iteration was reinstated in 2006.

Like the M track days and the performance center schools, I suspect (and hope) that BMW looks at any financial cost to run ED as a marketing and brand loyalty expense.

Fingers crossed the program lives on....especially with the discount component.
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      01-25-2019, 11:36 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by alex2364 View Post
Are you or any one of us a professional drag racer? Talking about what a drag racer can do isn't realistic for any of us normal people.
Upshift may be a bit faster with DCT, but I don't miss auto at all on downshifts when you have to carry speed into corner Depends on a track, but 6MT also has better gear ratio for high speed acceleration I think.

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      01-26-2019, 12:34 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Upshift may be a bit faster with DCT, but I don't miss auto at all on downshifts when you have to carry speed into corner Depends on a track, but 6MT also has better gear ratio for high speed acceleration I think.

It would seem logical that if the MT was the better transmission for the track teams like Turner and BMW RLL would be using them.
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      01-26-2019, 12:57 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
It would seem logical that if the MT was the better transmission for the track teams like Turner and BMW RLL would be using them.
I would suppose those race cars use sequential manual transmission, but if it's a radial race, probably is closer to GT4 spec.

Overall DCT would a better transmission since you don't have to worry about driver error, one variable down. I'm saying in some performance aspects, MT loses very little(downshift) or offers better(weight, gear ratio).

I don't think I've lost to any DCT in acceleration from 150km/h+, all else being identical; probably because final gear ratio is much shorter than DCT, so stays in peak power band for longer which is crucial at top speed. 4th~6th gear in E92 is basically a cross gear transmission.
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      01-26-2019, 01:22 AM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auggiem3 View Post
Are you referring to Audi dropping the program recently?

I believe Audi highlighted the manufacturing locations of many of the models outside of Germany as justification for terminating the program (just like you can't ED an X car built in South Carolina).

I bet the Audi program headwinds were compounded by the participation rate.

As a member of PCA, BMW CCA and ACNA, I was surprised to see how small the membership of Audi club is compared to Porsche and BMW. PCA claims 130,000 members and BMW CCA reports 75,000 active members. ACNA hovers around 10,000 and I believe that's including Canada.

Anecdotally, Porsche and BMW forums seem full of ED journals but the Audi comps (audizine and Audiworld) don't have near the volume of Euro Delivery threads.

I know this is a broad statement but I'd argue Audi trails BMW and Porsche in enthusiast following hence a lower likely take rate on European Delivery.

Audi also terminated the program previously before the most recent iteration was reinstated in 2006.

Like the M track days and the performance center schools, I suspect (and hope) that BMW looks at any financial cost to run ED as a marketing and brand loyalty expense.

Fingers crossed the program lives on....especially with the discount component.
No. I’m referring to the drop in incentive from 7% to 5%, and even more importantly to the allocation cutoff, where most ED cars are now coming out of dealer allocation and not separate as before. It completely kills the discount they are willing to give, and it also reduces the number of dealers willing to do Euro Delivery in the first place. And, no rebates at all for ED. I think I saved $5k-$7k more on my 2015 ED M3 compared to the 2018.

Plus, logistically I had the hardest time getting my ED set up last summer, with a friendly dealer and nice recommendations all around. No allocations, no discounts whatsoever. It’s never been like that before.

Overall, it points out to BMW decontenting the program, making it less attractive to the end user. These can be imminent signs of death.
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      01-26-2019, 01:37 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I never spoke to a professional race car driver that liked the SMG of the E46 generation M3. They felt that the shifts were too jerky and that they upset the car. I have heard nothing but praise for the ZF 8 Speed in the M235R Factory Racer.

A number of years ago I attended a BMW sponsored test drive of the E9x M3. Before we took the cars out for a drive there was a presentation from representatives of BMW that were there from Germany. Several of the people from BMW were engineers from the M team. One of the participants asked one of the engineers how the SMG from the E46 compared to the DCT in the E90. Her response was "The SMG was crap".
What on earth possesses you to bring up race cars in this conversation? The M3 is not a race car. It’s a trackable street car, nothing more.

I couldn’t care less if my lap time was 2 seconds slower with the stickshift. Absolutely not a concern. When I go to the track, I measure my improvements from session to session, year to year, all to do with better technique, more confidence, more mental stamina. Me against myself, man against the machine.

It’s never been about going fastest, or else I could have bought a Corvette or a Radical or similar and called it a day. It’s about the learning and the improvement process, in which a manual transmission is just another thing you as a driver must master, in addition to the miriad other things you must keep track of. When done right, in addition to the racing line, and tire/brake management, traffic management, maintaining consistency etc., it simply provides a better “high”, more of a satisfaction and feeling of achievement - for me at least. And again, the lap times are only significant for me personally.

If you think you’ve maxed out a car on track simply because it has an automatic transmission of some kind, you’re delusional. And if you’re not maxing it out anyway, what difference could it possibly make if it had a stick or not. If you’re not racing professionally, then you’re just out having a good time.

And what type of trophy/prize do you take home from a trackday? The correct answer is, your own car, undamaged, and your health, unchanged.

Everything else is just BS.
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      01-26-2019, 03:13 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
What on earth possesses you to bring up race cars in this conversation? The M3 is not a race car. It’s a trackable street car, nothing more.

I couldn’t care less if my lap time was 2 seconds slower with the stickshift. Absolutely not a concern. When I go to the track, I measure my improvements from session to session, year to year, all to do with better technique, more confidence, more mental stamina. Me against myself, man against the machine.

It’s never been about going fastest, or else I could have bought a Corvette or a Radical or similar and called it a day. It’s about the learning and the improvement process, in which a manual transmission is just another thing you as a driver must master, in addition to the miriad other things you must keep track of. When done right, in addition to the racing line, and tire/brake management, traffic management, maintaining consistency etc., it simply provides a better “high”, more of a satisfaction and feeling of achievement - for me at least. And again, the lap times are only significant for me personally.

If you think you’ve maxed out a car on track simply because it has an automatic transmission of some kind, you’re delusional. And if you’re not maxing it out anyway, what difference could it possibly make if it had a stick or not. If you’re not racing professionally, then you’re just out having a good time.

And what type of trophy/prize do you take home from a trackday? The correct answer is, your own car, undamaged, and your health, unchanged.

Everything else is just BS.
The "thing on Earth that possessed him" to bring that up was that they were talking about racing transmissions, which a true SMG is.

Okay it's not about going fastest, but it certainly is about going faster isn't it? Or how do you measure your improvement from lap-to-lap, etc?

You mention the "miriad of other things" involved in the driving process. He isn't saying he's automatically "maxed out a car" just because he's driving it on track with an auto. He's exactly saying the same as you, that there is much more to perfecting your high-performance driving than rowing your own gears with a manual transmission, which I'll go ahead and agree with him that it's probably not the hardest one to master either.

Don't go about calling others delusional when you're saying that if the car doesn't have a manual transmission, suddenly it can't be "man against the machine".

You enjoy your manual. Maybe he feels like he's already had his fair share of improving his shifting skills, and now finds much more joy in perfecting the other things you need to put the car through it's paces effectively.
There's nothing wrong with either, but it doesn't make anyone less or more of a driver just based on their preferences.
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      01-26-2019, 06:51 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by auggiem3 View Post
Are you referring to Audi dropping the program recently?

I believe Audi highlighted the manufacturing locations of many of the models outside of Germany as justification for terminating the program (just like you can't ED an X car built in South Carolina).

I bet the Audi program headwinds were compounded by the participation rate.

As a member of PCA, BMW CCA and ACNA, I was surprised to see how small the membership of Audi club is compared to Porsche and BMW. PCA claims 130,000 members and BMW CCA reports 75,000 active members. ACNA hovers around 10,000 and I believe that's including Canada.

Anecdotally, Porsche and BMW forums seem full of ED journals but the Audi comps (audizine and Audiworld) don't have near the volume of Euro Delivery threads.

I know this is a broad statement but I'd argue Audi trails BMW and Porsche in enthusiast following hence a lower likely take rate on European Delivery.

Audi also terminated the program previously before the most recent iteration was reinstated in 2006.

Like the M track days and the performance center schools, I suspect (and hope) that BMW looks at any financial cost to run ED as a marketing and brand loyalty expense.

Fingers crossed the program lives on....especially with the discount component.
No. I'm referring to the drop in incentive from 7% to 5%, and even more importantly to the allocation cutoff, where most ED cars are now coming out of dealer allocation and not separate as before. It completely kills the discount they are willing to give, and it also reduces the number of dealers willing to do Euro Delivery in the first place. And, no rebates at all for ED. I think I saved $5k-$7k more on my 2015 ED M3 compared to the 2018.

Plus, logistically I had the hardest time getting my ED set up last summer, with a friendly dealer and nice recommendations all around. No allocations, no discounts whatsoever. It's never been like that before.

Overall, it points out to BMW decontenting the program, making it less attractive to the end user. These can be imminent signs of death.
I hear you on those trends but I still hold out hope that BMW would consider European Delivery outlay as a loyalty expense in a similar fashion to the CCA rebate.

I don't know many folks in BMWCCA or on Bimmerpost with one (or more) ED trips that wouldn't consider BMW near the top of the brand list when shopping for a new car. It works.

Porsche is a zero discount ED option and, like BMW now, cars come out of dealer allocations. So while there is no stated cost for European Delivery when you order a car (unlike Atlanta or LA pickup), I've heard and found that dealers have less room to move.

Porsche openly holds the program as a part of the company's culture. Panorama (the club magazine) and the 356 Registry (vintage pre 911 Porsche model club) constantly feature stories of European Delivery trips for US buyers dating back to the 50's and 60's.

Mercedes still has up to 7% off if the discount is a major consideration. And Volvo will pay for your airfare plus some if Sweden is more your style.

Again I highly doubt BMW kills the program given the brand equity it creates and the remaining peer set alternatives (Porsche, Mercedes, etc.). But, to your point, they might continue to reduce the financial benefit.
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      01-26-2019, 07:21 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
I would suppose those race cars use sequential manual transmission, but if it's a radial race, probably is closer to GT4 spec.

Overall DCT would a better transmission since you don't have to worry about driver error, one variable down. I'm saying in some performance aspects, MT loses very little(downshift) or offers better(weight, gear ratio).

I don't think I've lost to any DCT in acceleration from 150km/h+, all else being identical; probably because final gear ratio is much shorter than DCT, so stays in peak power band for longer which is crucial at top speed. 4th~6th gear in E92 is basically a cross gear transmission.

It appears that BMW race cars do not use either a DCT or 6MT. To the best of my knowledge the Z4 GTE use a Hewland/Xtrac 6-speed semi-automatic paddle-shift gearbox, the M235R Factory Racer use a ZF 8 Speed Automatic, the M6 GTE uses a an Xtrac 6-speed sequential semi-automatic paddle shifted transmission. I am not sure what Transmission is in the BMW M4 ZTE that has been modified for Alex Zanardi but I believe it uses a centrifugal clutch.

I got a close look at Alex Zanardi's car (and got to meet Alex Zanardi) at an event at Manhattan Classic Car Club earlier this month. Other than its shape it does not appear to have very much in common with the production car. The driver's side door, which I would assume is made of carbon fiber, almost felt weightless when I opened it.
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Last edited by captainaudio; 01-26-2019 at 07:50 AM..
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      01-26-2019, 03:00 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepingBMW View Post
Official figures have the SMG at 60ms per shift and PDK at 200 ms.

SMG has to be in special 6 bars mode to do this which was kind of hidden like Launch mode for no apparent reason behind some random button presses and couldn't be accessed simply with the shift speed button.

BMW still uses an SMG transmission in its race cars (M8 GTE for example). We just get ZF slushers because too many people complained about the race transmission.

Actually Porsche runs an SMG gearbox and not a PDK in their race cars as well.

Of course, race cars get rebuilt every race and nobody wants to do that for their daily

A human bean with a stick caps out at around 500.
You've conflated the idea of a true Sequential Manual Transmission:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequen...l_transmission

with BMW's as-branded "SMG" electro-hydraulic manual transmission:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...l_transmission

BMW had never used a true SMG gearbox in a road car, and other than perhaps (a big maybe) some obscure exotic supercar, no other manufacturer has either. The "sequential manual transmission"s that are mentioned in the above article from Ferrari and Maserati are also not true SMG gearboxes which (as mentioned in the first article) by design can a) only be shifted sequentially b) have no automatic shift mode.

BMW's SMG in "I", "II", or "III" evolutions does not offer superior overall performance to their DCT transmissions. There is more to shifting than the time it takes to engage a gear. In a DCT, the shift process maybe be slower, but you can start the shift while the car is still in the soon-to-be prior gear so the total time to the next gear is less than the 100ms or whatever time it took to complete the shift.
I'll disagree. First SMG literally stands for Sequential Manual Gearbox. In the SMG article you linked it obviously mentions F1 gearboxes and it even says controlled by a hydraulic pump.

Then the hydraulic pump article mentions it again and also states BMWs time of 65 milliseconds with the gearbox trickled down from F1.

Again, SMG wasn't 'crap' it's better for performance than PDK. It's just jerky at low speeds and it turned a lot of people off. Totally different experience at low speeds to a DCT (my experience is with Audi S6). At track speeds DCT is good when it guesses your next move overwork it feels like the old ZF6 at high speed.

Hasn't been used in proper racing since the 80s I believe.

I suppose I'm the only one that likes SMG and thus it's dead as can be. Enjoy the ZF8s I suppose. Not bad, but a step below DCT imo.
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      01-26-2019, 05:11 PM   #255
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I'll disagree. First SMG literally stands for Sequential Manual Gearbox. In the SMG article you linked it obviously mentions F1 gearboxes and it even says controlled by a hydraulic pump.
Except that this is not a matter of opinion. BMWs SMG-branded gearbox, in all three generations, was not a sequential manual transmission. This is a fact that you can see plainly by looking at a parts diagram for the vehicles that used these transmissions. In fact, in the first two generations, SMG was literally the same off the shelf MT used in the manual transmission version of the M3 with an electrohydraulic shifting mechanism integrated externally.

BMW’s SMG can be shifted non-sequentially by executing quick successive pulls or by executing a kickdown shift, just like a DCT or AT can. A true SMG transmission cannot because the forks are moved by a rotating mechanical shift barrel that makes it physically impossible to do so.

Quote:
Again, SMG wasn't 'crap'
I never said it was “crap” and don’t think it was. The point of my response was not (and never is) to mindlessly ridicule technology since that is in no way productive.

Still, the fact is that “SMG” was not a sequential gearbox nor a racing gearbox. It was a great innovation that allowed an off-the-shelf manual transmission (the final generation used a bespoke box) to have its clutch operated automatically and to be alternatively shifted automatically as well. It was also an innovation whose life came to its natural end of cycle once DCT transmissions became cost effective and ready for widespread use in production vehicles.
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      01-26-2019, 05:23 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Except that this is not a matter of opinion. BMWs SMG-branded gearbox, in all three generations, was not a sequential manual transmission. This is a fact that you can see plainly by looking at a parts diagram for the vehicles that used these transmissions. In fact, in the first two generations, SMG was litterally the same off the shelf MT used in the manual transmission version of the M3 with an electrohydraulic shifting mechanism integrated externally.

BMW’s SMG can be shifted non-sequentially by executing quick successive pulls or by executing a kickdown shift, just like a DCT or AT can. A true SMG transmission cannot because the forks are moved by a rotating mechanical shift barrel that makes it physically impossible to do so.



I never said it was “crap” and don’t think it was. The point of my response was not (and never is) to mindlessly ridicule technology since that is in no way productive.

Still, the fact is that “SMG” was not a sequential gearbox nor a racing gearbox. It was a great innovation that allowed an off-the-shelf manual transmission (the final generation used a bespoke box) to have its clutch operated automatically and to be alternatively shifted automatically as well. It was also an innovation whose life came to its natural end of cycle once DCT transmissions became cost effective and ready for widespread use in production vehicles.
I also did not say the BMW SMG was "crap". I never drove one so I don't have an opinion. What I did do was quote an engineer from the BMW M division who when asked how it compared to the DCT in the E9x responded "The DCT was crap".

A number of posters here have shown that they know a lot more about the DCT than I do and have driven them and understand its good and bad points. I will have to defer to them as they have real world experience and all I have is here say.
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