[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by andrewsd

M cars aren't supercars, everything about those are raw, loud, and visceral. You don't daily a supercar. You daily an M. Apples and oranges.

M isn't a supercar, but it used to represent a daily driveable race car; punching two classes above their weight is what M used to do.

96+ E36 M3s were offered with 321hp, making 100hp per liter with a naturally aspirated engine which was first from BMW and only rivaled by Ferrari back in the day. You look at E92 M3/E60 M5 with F1 inspired V10/V8 engines, they were compared to Porsche and Ferrari of the time in terms of driving dynamics and engagement. I didn't feel the particular need to get a Porsche years ago and have never looked at AMG or RS variants. All these M cars were only offered with an automated manual (including DCT) or MT.

Now BMW M just does a bare minimum to keep their relative advantage in the segment (i.e. vs AMG,RS). If BMW M cannot offer what it used to offer- uncompromising driving pleasure and performance- I will unfortunately have to move onto a flat six with PDK.

[nublu2u]

If BMW can justify that the 8AT is quicker shifting and lighter than a DCT then fair enough, otherwise it's a cost decision. M3/ M4 cars (well, previous gen cars, don't know about the G80) are lighter than the competition. Doesn't seem to be true for the X series M's though.

Don't know what will differentiate the G80/ G82 (apart from the grille) engineering wise. The days of ///M management and engineers having a laugh about the competition are long gone - equivalent AMG and RS models are excellent choices for anyone.

[pbar]

Originally Posted by nublu2u

If BMW can justify that the 8AT is quicker shifting and lighter than a DCT then fair enough, otherwise it's a cost decision. M3/ M4 cars (well, previous gen cars, don't know about the G80) are lighter than the competition. Doesn't seem to be true for the X series M's though.

That's why the ZF8 is so popular in motorsport. /s

[andrewsd]

Originally Posted by drgmt

I apologise for sounding condescending. It wasn't my intention. But this is purely a cost issue.

If Mercedes pushes on with a DCT in an A class, I think its poor form for an M car to follow the masses in its segment.

Mercedes - Alfa - better engine, Better
Exhaust and in the case of Mercedes Better interior. Why buy an M?

What an M car had over these cars was driving dynamics. The DCT is a massive part of this winning formula. With a ZF it will lose that dynamic driving advantage.

I drove a Alfa quadrafoglio a week ago and all the journos raving about the ZF box must have driving a different car - it was terrible and no where near as good as our DCT.

Fair points. There is no denying the car feels more special with a DCT. I remember going from my Audi S5 to an M4 and the DCT made the car feel unique. It made it more exciting to drive. I loved it.

And with the GT500 and C8 going DCT it's a shame BMW M is moving away from it.

I still believe the ZF makes sense in the M5 with is luxury attributes. But M2/M3, any CS variant should keep a DCT.

I haven't driven the Alfa yet.

[drgmt]

Drive the M5 during a launch event on track and it was really quite linear and very comfortable - a little boring actually. So I totally agree that a standard automatic suits this large sedan quite nicely.

No doubt the new M3 will sell on BHP and 0-60 numbers alone and in large quantities. But no way the enthusiast segment will jump on this. That may not mean anything to BMW though and I accept that.

There are too many options in this segment which offer an overall better package if the M3/4 offers a similar driving experience to them.

I'm still hopeful the CS or CSL variant might continue with a DCT. Time will tell.

If I can find an M4 GTS pop up I'll be jumping on that and keeping it long term to replace my CS.

The CS and GTS were absolute perfection on this platform (with the exception that the GTS should have been named the CSL lol). The last of a dying breed of car.

[Salespunk]

Originally Posted by pbar

As I have posted many times in this thread, I drove a C63S and a 2020 X3M Comp (with the "M-tuned" ZF8) just last month. I put both of them in the 'full-on sport' settings, and tried to drive them using the paddles.

The C63S was *OK*...(not as nice as the M4 DCT) but you should be aware that that's a multi-clutch transmission (MCT), not a slushbox. It shifted when I wanted it to, but the 8-spd box made it hard to avoid the rev limiter.

The X3M Comp was just dreadful to drive when not in 'full auto' mode. Sluggish downshifts combined with turbo lag, little audio feedback and 8-spd close ratios makes it a frustrating experience.

As an M5 driver, you're clearly comfortable with the heavy GT muscle car thing. I respect your preference. But I'm personally not interested in driving an M car in 'full auto' mode.

I have driven my F90 less than 20 miles in auto mode, I only use manual mode and will continue to drive it that way. Compared to my F10 M5 which I NEVER used manual mode because the shifts sucked in manual mode. The shifts are anything but sluggish with the new setup. In contrast I was shocked by how quickly the transmission reacted relative to my previous M vehicles.

I put 20K +miles on my M4 and M5 with DCT so I have a very good idea of how those transmissions function. I have owned all of them, not just a simple 10 minute test drive. Just because you drove an X3M doesn't mean that it will have any relation to the G8x. Software is everything now and any sort of feel, shift speed, reaction times, etc can and will be tuned based on the target buyer.

Your comment that I am "OK with the heavy GT muscle car thing" assumes that I want a German Camaro, but that couldn't be further from the truth. I value lightweight cars and some of my favorites were my '85 911, e90 M3 and current Civic Type R. Your thinking that the current or future M3/4 is some sort of lightweight performance vehicle is way off the mark. Any current M car is very far removed as a driving experience compared to something truly light weight and simple. Go drive a 996/997 GT3 compared to a 997.2 GT3, it is a night a day experience regarding involvement, feedback, etc. Unfortunately it is endemic in vehicles across the industry.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Salespunk

I have driven my F90 less than 20 miles in auto mode, I only use manual mode and will continue to drive it that way. Compared to my F10 M5 which I NEVER used manual mode because the shifts sucked in manual mode. The shifts are anything but sluggish with the new setup. In contrast I was shocked by how quickly the transmission reacted relative to my previous M vehicles.

Do you short shift before the redline? ZF8 is good for cruising about town and shifting way before the redline in manual mode but it has a noticeable delay when shifting at redline WOT. Downshifts are also configured very "safe" compared to DCT which lets to downshift right near the redline.

Originally Posted by Salespunk

I put 20K +miles on my M4 and M5 with DCT so I have a very good idea of how those transmissions function. I have owned all of them, not just a simple 10 minute test drive. Just because you drove an X3M doesn't mean that it will have any relation to the G8x. Software is everything now and any sort of feel, shift speed, reaction times, etc can and will be tuned based on the target buyer.

That's very different experience from what I had with N55 M2 DCT or F90 M5. M2 DCT was perfectly smooth in every shift mode and shifts were instant on mode 3 unlike F90 M5 which has that 0.3 second pause before the next shift is engaged. The only acceptable iteration of ZF8 was M240i but even that one didn't fare so well on track.

[Imola3]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

So you would put a generic, slower transmission that everybody uses on your halo car to make the car exactly the same as the others?

Let's also get the facts correct. AMG has developed 8-speed DCT exclusively for their A35/A45 variants and is willing to expand the DCT lineups.

As much as I'm a diehard BMW fan and a driver for over a decade I am less than pleased with their latest decisions regarding vehicle dynamics and design. I am all supportive of BMW selling grocery getters but they should never bear the M badge.

I get that BMW would do it to save money by making the car more reliable. And you really think the M3/4 is considered BMWs Halo Car?

"I am all supportive of BMW selling grocery getters but they should never bear the M badge." Isn't the whole point of an M car that you can spend a day at the track and stop at the grocery store on the way home?

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Imola3

I get that BMW would do it to save money by making the car more reliable. And you really think the M3/4 is considered BMWs Halo Car?

I'm sorry, but have you owned older Ms before?

The whole M division(for street) was founded on E30 M3. The car is undoubtedly a historic halo car of the BMW M.

Originally Posted by Imola3

"I am all supportive of BMW selling grocery getters but they should never bear the M badge." Isn't the whole point of an M car that you can spend a day at the track and stop at the grocery store on the way home?

Not just a day doodling around thinking oh, I've tracked my car now. M3 should be able to track "all day" without overheating and post impressive lap times.

I don't have a direct experience with DCT but my friends who track them with E9x/F8x platform rarely reports any issue with the transmission. I myself run 6MT and this platform by far has been the most reliable.
The ZF in M235i on the other hand had several issues (rod bearing failure due to oil starvation, transmission getting too hot refusing to shift) when tracked.

People often mention M235i racing transmission as comparison but that one has the torque converter removed in order to save weight so it is not the same transmission the street version gets.
Also note that M240i racing is now being replaced by M2 CS racing. If the transmission was so good and "reliable" we'd see more of them racing but they just are not.

[pbar]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

People often mention M235i racing transmission as comparison but that one has the torque converter removed in order to save weight so it is not the same transmission the street version gets.
Also note that M240i racing is now being replaced by M2 CS racing. If the transmission was so good and "reliable" we'd see more of them racing but they just are not.

Thankyou for this. I saw it mentioned on the GT3 thread that M235iR and M240iR racing variants were shipped with a modified 7 speed ZF8 box and wondered if anybody had technical details. Not much in the way of specifics here: https://www.bmw-motorsport.com/en/to...0i-racing.html - it goes into bizarre detail like what model of fire extinguisher, but doesn't even mention the transmission! (maybe there is service information in newtis.com?)

If they removed the torque converter, changed the ratios so that a gear change actually made a noticeable difference, and fixed the lag then it's possible that it would be just fine. If so, I want *this* version on my the G8x.

Has anybody actually driven one of these variants? Or heard feedback on how they drove? (not very reassuring that they replaced it with an M2CS - with DCT)


Update: This page suggests that the comment on the GT3 thread was BS. https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...tomer-racecar/

The M2 Competition road car has a 405hp S55 engine from the M3/M4, 7-speed Dual Clutch Transmission, and Active M differential. The M240i – and its associated Racing version – have the 335hp N55 engine, 8-speed ZF automatic transmission, and standard clutch-type M Performance limited slip differential.

and

The M235iR .... with endurance-spec brakes, a transmission that can’t be “money shifted”, and relatively benign handling, it’s an ideal car for endurance use when dealing with varying drivers.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by pbar

Thankyou for this. I saw it mentioned on the GT3 thread that M235iR and M240iR racing variants were shipped with a modified 7 speed ZF8 box and wondered if anybody had technical details. Not much in the way of specifics here: https://www.bmw-motorsport.com/en/to...0i-racing.html - it goes into bizarre detail like what model of fire extinguisher, but doesn't even mention the transmission! (maybe there is service information in newtis.com?)

If they removed the torque converter, changed the ratios so that a gear change actually made a noticeable difference, and fixed the lag then it's possible that it would be just fine. If so, I want *this* version on my the G8x.

Has anybody actually driven one of these variants? Or heard feedback on how they drove? (not very reassuring that they replaced it with an M2CS - with DCT)


Update: This page suggests that the comment on the GT3 thread was BS. https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...tomer-racecar/

and

https://www.sachsperformance.com/en/...-8hp45-from-zf

Check this link out.

[pbar]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

https://www.sachsperformance.com/en/...-8hp45-from-zf

Check this link out.

Very interesting video. Some obsevations below:

They explicitly mention addressing a lot of the issues that many of us have with the ZF8 in existing BMW cars (i.e. not downshifting at high speeds).

The video states that they removed the torque converter. (probably a bit clunky setting off from a standing start!)

It mentions making the ratios *closer* -- so all the gears are useful on a track (probably shoots the fuel efficiency numbers ;-)

With 8 closely spaced ratios, it's unclear whether they are still expecting the driver to do the shifting- you'd need to do several rapid downshifts going into many corners at the tracks I drive. The video doesn't show anybody using the paddles. It does have a driver claiming that he "wouldn't have known it was a automatic" and was pleasantly surprised. (they obviously wouldn't interview a driver who said anything else though) What did he think he was driving? (a sequential manual?)

The web page also mentions the Porsche PDK gearbox, and a racing version for the Cayman. It's not clear to me how this is related to the BMW 235iR box. Are they implying that they also make the PDK? Are they suggesting it's the same? Is it all a matter of software?

Anyway ... it's clear you can make a better ZF8 ... but is this really what they will put in the G8x ?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by pbar

Very interesting video. Some obsevations below:

They explicitly mention addressing a lot of the issues that many of us have with the ZF8 in existing BMW cars (i.e. not downshifting at high speeds).

The video states that they removed the torque converter. (probably a bit clunky setting off from a standing start!)

It mentions making the ratios *closer* -- so all the gears are useful on a track (probably shoots the fuel efficiency numbers ;-)

With 8 closely spaced ratios, it's unclear whether they are still expecting the driver to do the shifting- you'd need to do several rapid downshifts going into many corners at the tracks I drive. The video doesn't show anybody using the paddles. It does have a driver claiming that he "wouldn't have known it was a automatic" and was pleasantly surprised. (they obviously wouldn't interview a driver who said anything else though) What did he think he was driving? (a sequential manual?)

The web page also mentions the Porsche PDK gearbox, and a racing version for the Cayman. It's not clear to me how this is related to the BMW 235iR box. Are they implying that they also make the PDK? Are they suggesting it's the same? Is it all a matter of software?

Anyway ... it's clear you can make a better ZF8 ... but is this really what they will put in the G8x ?

I’d be shocked if the G8X ZF isn’t a straight M5 transplant.

[pbar]

Originally Posted by solstice

I’d be shocked if the G8X ZF isn’t a straight M5 transplant.

Then I'm with the M8 reviewer in post #215

Starting at time 4:20 in the video

"I'm not sure the gearbox is just as snappy as I'd like it to be in an M-car. Look at that... I want that to happen faster.
I want the upshifts to go <snap> like that, just snap through. But they don't. Neither do they on the downshifts. There's like about a quarter second's delay. It's probably less than that but it feels that long; when you hit the paddle and when the gearshift takes place."

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by pbar

Very interesting video. Some obsevations below:

They explicitly mention addressing a lot of the issues that many of us have with the ZF8 in existing BMW cars (i.e. not downshifting at high speeds).

The video states that they removed the torque converter. (probably a bit clunky setting off from a standing start!)

It mentions making the ratios *closer* -- so all the gears are useful on a track (probably shoots the fuel efficiency numbers ;-)

With 8 closely spaced ratios, it's unclear whether they are still expecting the driver to do the shifting- you'd need to do several rapid downshifts going into many corners at the tracks I drive. The video doesn't show anybody using the paddles. It does have a driver claiming that he "wouldn't have known it was a automatic" and was pleasantly surprised. (they obviously wouldn't interview a driver who said anything else though) What did he think he was driving? (a sequential manual?)

The web page also mentions the Porsche PDK gearbox, and a racing version for the Cayman. It's not clear to me how this is related to the BMW 235iR box. Are they implying that they also make the PDK? Are they suggesting it's the same? Is it all a matter of software?

Anyway ... it's clear you can make a better ZF8 ... but is this really what they will put in the G8x ?

It just means GT4 clubsport uses PDK which ZF manufactures.

I don’t see the reason they would use ZF8 TC auto for G8x if it is “as clunky” as M235 racing. They’d just put the latest, fastest iteration of DCT back in.

Towards the end of the video, the racer also mentions “he could use faster shifts”, implying that even with all the modifications, it probably isn’t up to typical motorsport standards.