[KoenG]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Torque on the 435i actually comes on slightly sooner than the 330i (1300rpm vs. 1550). And the 435i (stock) is quicker in literally every scenario (0-60; rolling start 5-60; top gear 30-50 etc). Keep in mind you're comparing a turbo 6 cylinder to a turbo 4 cylinder.

Also you're talking about a 435 with the m-sport package and coilovers vs. a bare bones 330i without the m sport package, I'm not sure how you can say the vehicle dynamics would be better. This is why everyone is (rightfully so) saying it's not a fair comparison.

I remember that initial F30 reviews were far from top wrt the vehicle dynamics and the 3-series lost his crown to more focussed propositions. I think we all read these reviews back then? It was with the LCI that BMW returned to its original mojo and realised that they needed to improve the suspension to definitely differentiate from an Audi A4. Of course an LCI only allows small adjustments to dampers and coils, not an entire suspension geometry.

The G20 pre-launch theme was centered almost entirely around the "ultimate driving machine" experience while their head of vehicle dynamics confessed they had neglected this aspect. They showcased the G20 330i with LSD to proof that point.

So I believe that BMW investing ~100M€ in a more focussed wheel geometry in the G20 more than neutralises the effects of some stiffer damper/coil set-up. Also keep in mind that the B48 weights significant less that the N55, providing a better condition for crisp turn in.

Wrt wider powerband, that's correct but the ZF8 is a magician that can mask this in most occasions and can surf on the 400Nm, even when it hits a few hunderd rpm later. Not when you rev out of course, there is still a power deficit.

[Germanauto]

I have to wonder how you found the G20 "cold" yet the F32 to be fine. The F3X is the definition of "cold" and soulless when it comes to driving dynamics besides the power.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

I have to wonder how you found the G20 "cold" yet the F32 to be fine. The F3X is the definition of "cold" and soulless when it comes to driving dynamics besides the power.

The f32/36 with msport suspension (or after market suspension) wasn't nearly as bad as reviews in mainstream US car mags would have one believe. Whether it was better than a base g20 I don't know. Apparently the op thinks so.

[EXE46]

We see these reviews always from someone with the prior generation 3er extolling how their car is superior. These people are always the type who has no intention of upgrading. Therefore, they will find an excuse to justify why they're better off keeping their current car.

It's a fact that the competition ala Cadillac, Lexus etc had better steering and suspension than the F30. The F30 will go down in history as the first 3 series that did not live up to its pedigree.

[Burrcold]

It's pretty telling just how many people are either coming new to the 3 Series, or coming back to the 3 Series (after having skipped the F30 gen). It's a better car in almost ever possible metric.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

It's pretty telling just how many people are either coming new to the 3 Series, or coming back to the 3 Series (after having skipped the F30 gen). It's a better car in almost ever possible metric.

Are you basing this on supposition or actual sales numbers?

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Are you basing this on supposition or actual sales numbers?

Not necessarily a definitive answer, but U.S. sales of the 3er are up almost 100% for November compared to last year - 6200+ 11/19, 3200+ 11/18, per www.goodcarbadcar.net. 3er sales are up every month this year since the G20 went on sale. Having said that, overall 3er sales are down significantly from their highs in 2014 & 2015.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Are you basing this on supposition or actual sales numbers?

Oh god...sales numbers can't even be compared. Just look at any review or even the hype around the G20 vs the F30. That's my supposition based on what I'm seeing. Prove it otherwise.

[RedKloud]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Not necessarily a definitive answer, but U.S. sales of the 3er are up almost 100% for November compared to last year - 6200+ 11/19, 3200+ 11/18, per www.goodcarbadcar.net. 3er sales are up every month this year since the G20 went on sale. Having said that, overall 3er sales are down significantly from their highs in 2014 & 2015.

Part of it is likely due to the SUV craze. My dealer was telling me very few people buy cars anymore. They hardly have any 5 series in inventory because of this. While X3s and X5s are selling like hot cakes.

[EXE46]

I came back, after I sold my old E46 I didn't want an F30 in 2016 and never thought I would be back but that all changed after driving the G20 330i M Sport. I didn't even test drive the M340i. So I got the car without a test drive knowing how good the 4 cylinder was I was certain the M340i would be impeccable.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Oh god...sales numbers can't even be compared. Just look at any review or even the hype around the G20 vs the F30. That's my supposition based on what I'm seeing. Prove it otherwise.

I don't need to read a review about somebody else's take on the car. I've owned the F30 335i and two F-Series ///M's. I've also driven the new G20 over a 3 day period. It wasn't leaps and bounds better IMHO. I felt that some things were improved marginally and other things I felt that the F-Series did better. I was merely interested in knowing whether or not you were looking at sales numbers or just making an anecdotal statement. I guess we have some years to go before we know definitively if the G-Series betters the F-Series in overall sales.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I don't need to read a review about somebody else's take on the car. I've owned the F30 335i and two F-Series ///M's. I've also driven the new G20 over a 3 day period. It wasn't leaps and bounds better IMHO. I felt that some things were improved marginally and other things I felt that the F-Series did better. I was merely interested in knowing whether or not you were looking at sales numbers or just making an anecdotal statement. I guess we have some years to go before we know definitively if the G-Series betters the F-Series in overall sales.

We'll never be able to compare apples to apples because of the market shift towards SUV's.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

We'll never be able to compare apples to apples because of the market shift towards SUV's.

That is a fair point, but.....the market has been shifting towards SUV's for at least the last decade. It is not a new phenomenon.

[simonhch]

Originally Posted by EXE46

We see these reviews always from someone with the prior generation 3er extolling how their car is superior. These people are always the type who has no intention of upgrading. Therefore, they will find an excuse to justify why they're better off keeping their current car.

It's a fact that the competition ala Cadillac, Lexus etc had better steering and suspension than the F30. The F30 will go down in history as the first 3 series that did not live up to its pedigree.

Given that my entire review is based on my history of upgrading, this is an odd thing to say. I upgraded from an e46 to e90, then to an F32. I'm pretty consistent about it. For me it isn't a question of if, rather than when I will upgrade. I had always planned to keep my car for another 2-3 years. It warrants that, it's a great car, but at that point I'll be upgrading to a newer one. The G20 I drove has given me pause though, because I just didn't like it at all.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by simonhch

Given that my entire review is based on my history of upgrading, this is an odd thing to say. I upgraded from an e46 to e90, then to an F32. I'm pretty consistent about it. For me it isn't a question of if, rather than when I will upgrade. I had always planned to keep my car for another 2-3 years. It warrants that, it's a great car, but at that point I'll be upgrading to a newer one. The G20 I drove has given me pause though, because I just didn't like it at all.

Fair point. I share your sentiment to some extent. The G-Series definitely doesn't/didn't give me the same feeling(s) that I had when seeing the F30 M-Sport creeping up on me in my rearview. Where the F-Series was/is aggressive, the G-Series is soft. Where the F-Series was/is poised and sporty, the G-Series comes across utilitarian (...which isn't intended to suggest that it's not sporty nor incapable, it just doesn't feel/look sporty and doesn't exude the same sportiness that the F-Series did). The G-Series is good, but not great to me. If I were a current F3X owner, I probably wouldn't move up. I would wait for the ///M. The added tech isn't important enough for me to overlook the other things that I personally feel the G-Series lacks. I acknowledge that my feelings about the G22 may differ from that of the G20 (...referring to aesthetics/sport appeal). Oh, and the F-Series has a 6MT option. The lack of a 6MT makes a G20/22 less appealing to me.

[premier3is]

The F series was the joke of BMW, how can you compare it to the G20? Do an apples to apples comparison next time instead of stating things like "worst BMW ever, hate it, cold, absolutely horrid and so on" and maybe you'll be taken seriously.

Come to think of it, you just might be trolling everyone here. You're really comparing a baseline 330i "sport line" to your fully modded 435?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by premier3is

The F series was the joke of BMW, how can you compare it to the G20? Do an apples to apples comparison next time instead of stating things like "worst BMW ever, hate it, cold, absolutely horrid and so on" and maybe you'll be taken seriously.

Come to think of it, you just might be trolling everyone here. You're really comparing a baseline 330i "sport line" to your fully modded 435?

Is he not allowed to have an opinion? You can call the F-Series a joke, but he can't call a G-Series horrid?!? Why is it that your opinion matters more than his? The newest iteration of a thing isn't necessarily the best option for everyone. He didn't completely trash the new car. He gave it favorable marks in some areas and unfavorable marks in others (...just like every other car review).


/Devil's Advocate


P.S. This isn't intended to be a premier3is bash session. I'm just playing Switzerland.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by EXE46

We see these reviews always from someone with the prior generation 3er extolling how their car is superior. These people are always the type who has no intention of upgrading. Therefore, they will find an excuse to justify why they're better off keeping their current car.

It's a fact that the competition ala Cadillac, Lexus etc had better steering and suspension than the F30. The F30 will go down in history as the first 3 series that did not live up to its pedigree.

I'm not debating that the g20 has many improvements over the f30, and the g20 will continue to improve incrementally over its life and lci. The f30, though, was perfectly fine in its era, and stacked up well to the competition. It had its compromises, but so did the competition. The only people who debate this are those who take the likes of c&d, mt, RT, etc too seriously.

[premier3is]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Is he not allowed to have an opinion? You can call the F-Series a joke, but he can't call a G-Series horrid?!? Why is it that your opinion matters more than his? The newest iteration of a thing isn't necessarily the best option for everyone.


/Devil's Advocate

I have no problem with him having his opinion. Go ahead for all I care. But why come to the G forum section to state all that extra stuff where the majority here are G20 drivers? Is he looking to get approvals or something here?

We get it, you think it's horrid and the absolute worst BMW ever. Move on. Or go drive an M340i and then come back and compare. Just being realistic.

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by premier3is

The F series was the joke of BMW, how can you compare it to the G20? Do an apples to apples comparison next time instead of stating things like "worst BMW ever, hate it, cold, absolutely horrid and so on" and maybe you'll be taken seriously.

Come to think of it, you just might be trolling everyone here. You're really comparing a baseline 330i "sport line" to your fully modded 435?

Perhaps you should go back and take the time to read his original post more carefully before posting such rude drivel.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by premier3is

I have no problem with him having his opinion. Go ahead for all I care. But why come to the G forum section to state all that extra shit where the majority here are G20 drivers? Is he looking to get approvals or something here?

We get it, you think it's horrid and the absolute worst BMW ever. Move on. Or go drive an M340i and then come back and compare. Just being realistic.

I think his thread has/had merit because he finally had the opportunity to experience the car, so he shared his perspective. The problem with forums is that any criticism is met with contempt, often from the same people that criticize other platforms. It's not like he was some random person who joined the forum just to bash a G-Series. He has been a member on this forum for some time.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Not necessarily a definitive answer, but U.S. sales of the 3er are up almost 100% for November compared to last year - 6200+ 11/19, 3200+ 11/18, per www.goodcarbadcar.net. 3er sales are up every month this year since the G20 went on sale. Having said that, overall 3er sales are down significantly from their highs in 2014 & 2015.

Not to discount what you're saying here, because I am of the opinion that the G20 is much better than F30, but you can't really compare current sales to last year's sales. A good chunk of the reason for last year F30 sales to be so down is because typically, sales are significantly down the year right before a new model introduction.

The proper way to conduct this analysis is to compare launch of year the F30 to launch year of G20, adjusted for the consumer shift to SUV sales.

I'm not volunteering to do this.... just saying that's what would give you a more accurate representation of public sentiment.