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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions Grinding/wind noise

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      09-08-2020, 07:43 AM   #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossi123 View Post
Impressive work, really. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you and hope you will resolve the issue, but at the same time I highly doubt that we will be able to propagate all of this work to the BMW and have it officially accepted and implemented...
I got involved with my dealer and BMW with the early E90/91 models, where several customers were having very similar issues with the steering and how unnerving the car felt to drive. We were all running 17" RFTs.

The dealer got BMW Technical involved and we had got to the point where we were going to try an 18" wheel set on one of the problem cars. No users with 18" wheels were known to be reporting the same issues as those of us on 17". I was certainly willing to be a guinea pig and support BMW in trying to find a solution. BMW pulled out of the experiment. I think they realised the implications, if we, as customers, found 18" wheels sorted the problem.

I was disappointed with BMW, went my own way and got a second set of wheels and experimented with tyres. Got the car sorted, on my own terms.
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      09-08-2020, 08:32 AM   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossi123 View Post
Impressive work, really. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you and hope you will resolve the issue, but at the same time I highly doubt that we will be able to propagate all of this work to the BMW and have it officially accepted and implemented...
I got involved with my dealer and BMW with the early E90/91 models, where several customers were having very similar issues with the steering and how unnerving the car felt to drive. We were all running 17" RFTs.

The dealer got BMW Technical involved and we had got to the point where we were going to try an 18" wheel set on one of the problem cars. No users with 18" wheels were known to be reporting the same issues as those of us on 17". I was certainly willing to be a guinea pig and support BMW in trying to find a solution. BMW pulled out of the experiment. I think they realised the implications, if we, as customers, found 18" wheels sorted the problem.

I was disappointed with BMW, went my own way and got a second set of wheels and experimented with tyres. Got the car sorted, on my own terms.
Yet another example that BMW don't give a s... about their customers. I'm done with this brand.
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      09-08-2020, 09:07 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by clausmoll View Post
Yet another example that BMW don't give a s... about their customers. I'm done with this brand.
I've had that feeling in the past, ready to move on, but know how I'd feel, seeing other drivers enjoying their BMW. Was going to move on from my E91. But where to? Decided to stay with BMW, still have the 535i after 8 years. Enjoy every drive in it, even if there have been a few issues that taint the experience.

I had my fill of VAG, again due to not acknowledging faults and failing to find proper solutions. I'd never say, "never again".

The problem being, where is the marque which will sort any issues, without hassle?

I've yet to hear of one. There tend to be problems which test any brand loyalty.

One of my engineers used to say, "never buy into first year production", better to buy near the end of the life cycle, when all the production/quality issues have been ironed out.

Not always practical or desired, but definitely wise advice.
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      09-08-2020, 10:21 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
One of my engineers used to say, "never buy into first year production", better to buy near the end of the life cycle, when all the production/quality issues have been ironed out.

Not always practical or desired, but definitely wise advice.
True and wise advice, but we are not always able to follow reason instead of hearth...

I entered BMW's dealer to check the G31 to change for my previous E61 530d in the same week the new G21 was presented in Portugal.

Me and my wife found the G31 too big, even compared to the old E61 (10cm more). I test drove the G21 (320d) and was a perfect match. Perfect dimensions, suitable inner space, good quality. With a much lower weight than the G31, the G21 would be a perfect match with a petrol engine... and puffff, we ordered it.

I would not be able to wait a couple of years...
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      09-08-2020, 06:53 PM   #401
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I’ve driven 2 other vehicles for comparison...

A. 320d X drive M sport Plus G20 with adaptive shocks (FH chassis number)

B 320d M Sport Plus G20 with adaptive shocks (AJ chassis number)

These were both quieter than my 320d M Sport Plus G20 with adaptive shocks (FH Chassis number), but the x drive is Clearly the best/quietest.

All had the same 19 inch wheels, so wheels and tyres are pretty much irrelevant to solving this problem.

So, the addition of front drive shafts and their compatible hub/bearings format definitely reduces the noticeably annoying road noise - more mass clearly helps, as already stated/agreed.

However there may well be a batch of 2WD Front wheel bearings that are exasperating the issue on many 2 wheel drive vehicles., which is amplified by the aluminium inner wings that are connected to the taught (cheaply manufactured) strut brace, and also through the subframe which is also directly bolted surface to surface without any fibre material noise reduction insulators.

I’m presuming that BMW will have sourced the OE bearings from a German engineering company/s so I’ve decided to eliminate these manufacturers when choosing new/alternative wheel bearings/hubs, and selected SKF alternatives which should adhere to SKF’s normally expected high quality..., I’m still waiting for these to arrive.

Before installing these components, it may be possible to physically notice if they have a smoother rotation to the originals, as my originals don’t appear to be perfectly acceptable.

It may be next week before everything required arrives, then it will take a few labour hours to complete the work.

If the alternative SKF bearings, a modified strut brace and some fibre insulating washers solve this issue, that is once I’ve secured the components, then it should be perfectly within any competent mechanic’s ability to replicate my solutions with minimal expense as opposed to changing the vehicle at a knock down part exchange value.

SKF Wheel bearings, a second strut brace and some fibre washers will cost approx. £300 (Parts only) but the labour charge will be everyone’s problem If you are not a qualified mechanic and confident of replicating my solutions. Plus, if you are only leasing the vehicle then you may not have the right to modify the vehicle in any way, so it’ll be up to you to convince BMW to assist in a similar fashion.

I’ll let everyone know soon...
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      09-09-2020, 06:04 PM   #402
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After some research, it seems that accessing the strut brace is not that complicated, according to this:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/g...nts/1VneBKpWxj

This strut brace is only applicable to vehicles with M sports dampers or M adaptive sports dampers. This explains why this (extra) noise is not present on base versions.

Will see how thing develop with BMW dealer.
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      09-09-2020, 08:06 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmgoliv View Post
After some research, it seems that accessing the strut brace is not that complicated, according to this:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/g...nts/1VneBKpWxj

This strut brace is only applicable to vehicles with M sports dampers or M adaptive sports dampers. This explains why this (extra) noise is not present on base versions.

Will see how thing develop with BMW dealer.
I found some photos of said strut brace. It does look rather cheap.

https://www.ebay.com/i/264797286854?...caAv7yEALw_wcB
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      09-10-2020, 05:36 AM   #404
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I found some photos of said strut brace. It does look rather cheap.
It may look cheap, but could be a much more sophisticated and engineered solution, compared to a couple of tubes with flattened ends and holes punched in them. In fabricating terms, tubes are a 'cheap' solution.

The problem, if the brace is the culprit, is not that it appears cheap, but it has become a dominant pathway for road noise transmission. It requires a degree of isolation and/or damping in some way.
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      09-10-2020, 06:00 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
It may look cheap, but could be a much more sophisticated and engineered solution, compared to a couple of tubes with flattened ends and holes punched in them. In fabricating terms, tubes are a 'cheap' solution.

The problem, if the brace is the culprit, is not that it appears cheap, but it has become a dominant pathway for road noise transmission. It requires a degree of isolation and/or damping in some way.
Yes, I agree. It appears that the strut brace is bolted directly to the dampers' strut and to the central body frame. Without any isolation. What is a good solution from a structural point of view (as it improves stiffness) may be generating vibration and noise into the cabin.

Vibration generated by tires on road surface and possibly by wheel bearings is passed through the struts and then through the main body by this brace.

Could some kind of isolation (rubber) between the strut brace and the central body frame resolve this or significantly reduce it?
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      09-10-2020, 07:25 AM   #406
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Could some kind of isolation (rubber) between the strut brace and the central body frame resolve this or significantly reduce it?
Let's see what N.I BMW Owner finds, and whether he's identified the real source of the problem.

I'm sure there are solutions to changing the characteristics of the strut brace noise transmission pathway, if it is the problem.
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      09-10-2020, 05:11 PM   #407
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Guys, glad to see you’re following...

The strut brace can be modified and I have a solution.

I have ordered and received another identical part from BMW and intend to bond it to the original with a structural body adhesive, which will undoubtedly alter the natural frequency of the part, for the better.

The Sandwich of adhesive will act as a hidden sound insulation and the extra metal will be almost totally unnoticeable too, as the 2X thin & cheap and poorly designed brace plates will fit one on top of the other very easily.

We will upload some images later to demonstrate the easy modification process.

The brace can also be isolated from the mounting points by placing ‘steel fibre’ washers to the undersides of the brace, and under the bolt washers. Again, images will be provided. We already did this last week and we found some improvements, but was much better when the car was driven with the part removed.

These tests gave us clear direction that this brace was at least one of the key components transmitting the annoying driving noises, but would not remove the part on a long term basis.

Back to the Wheel bearings..., I actually decided to order two types of wheel bearings. 2x SKF & 2x Meyle equivalents.

These bearings have arrived and something interesting is immediately obvious.

The SKF bearings are manufactured in Italy, not Korea, or Japan (as suggested in the advertising images), but what is very apparent is that they demonstrate the same noisy characteristics as those already in our car from new. Meaning they are not smooth enough in my opinion (as a life long mechanic).

The Meyle bearing races appear much tighterand do not feel or sound Bad like the brand new SKF bearings, or the BMW originals. I gladly eat my own words, as these Meyle bearings are manufactured in Germany.

The Meyle bearings are also heavier In their weight than the SKFs which naturally leads me to believe that they are of better quality in every way, and more mass should also help against irritating noise.

Please remain patient, I intend to complete the work in the next few days, so hopefully we have the solution/s within touching distance!
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      09-11-2020, 03:17 AM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N.I BMW Owner View Post
I have ordered and received another identical part from BMW and intend to bond it to the original with a structural body adhesive, which will undoubtedly alter the natural frequency of the part, for the better.

The Sandwich of adhesive will act as a hidden sound insulation and the extra metal will be almost totally unnoticeable too, as the 2X thin & cheap and poorly designed brace plates will fit one on top of the other very easily.
Good to read the parts sandwich. I like this approach, not only simple, but makes so much sense in its ability to change the characteristics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by N.I BMW Owner View Post
The Meyle bearing races appear much tighter and do not feel or sound Bad like the brand new SKF bearings, or the BMW originals. I gladly eat my own words, as these Meyle bearings are manufactured in Germany.
Very interesting and await your results.

Well done for persisting on this one.
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      09-11-2020, 08:22 AM   #409
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Thanks for the update N.I BMW Owner.

I am following this very closely. All your findings made much sense for me and I'm keeping my fingers crossed regarding the outcome.

Depending on the change made to the brace, it also appears that the changes are not that complicated for BMW to implement them. I will keep the pressure on my BMW dealer and I will not accept this as "a characteristic of the car" easily.

Keep us posted.
Thanks.
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      09-19-2020, 12:49 PM   #410
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Today for the first time I've noticed the suspicious idle engine(?) noise, as described by Glaede in post #36. I can hear it standing next to the car even with the hood closed. It was impossible to pinpoint the source, the sound was filling the entire engine bay.. maybe slightly louder on the right side, but not by much if any. It couldn't be heard inside the cabin.

Of course I've recorded the video but the recording quality was not great, and I find the Glaede's video is still up, so here is the link from the post #36: https://photos.app.goo.gl/io5RrdzR235YY76W6

The sound in my car is exactly the same. Is it possible that this sound gets louder when we drive and then is somehow transmitted inside the cabin? What could it be? Engine? Transmission, drive shaft?

Or maybe now I am just paranoid?
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      09-23-2020, 06:54 PM   #411
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We made the alterations to the brace by doubling it with an adhesive filling, and made gaskets that fit between the brace surfaces where it mounts to the car.

The brace is now has a lower natural frequency, but not as low as I would have preferred. ThereÂ’s not much space to do anything else with it, so we also placed some sound deadening mat strips to the surfaces.

When driving, the noise may be slightly lowered but not cured completely.

I hope to have time to fit the insulation gaskets between the subframe and the chassis, as found on the F30 parts diagram, so hopefully this will also improve things.

However when working on the car it is apparent that the interior air intake housing has no noise restrictions from the exterior to the cabin.

The intake housing is merely a plastic opening with a grill to prevent large debris such as leaves from entering the heater matrix, but you can actually see the pollen filter inside the vehicleÂ’s heater matrix inside the car, as thereÂ’s no meaningful baffle, or noise reduction device.

The intake is also located on the firewall above the empty chamber directly behind the strut mounting. This chamber may also be acting as an acoustic magnifier of any road noises, just like conventional wooden guitars, where strings vibrated over empty chambers assists the noise to be magnified significantly, but intentionally.

The intake housing on the F30 and the 5 series G30 And other models look more comprehensive, which may assist in reducing exterior travelling sounds, and the chamber on the F30 is significantly smaller in volume/size.

It appears that too much effort has been made to save weight to the detriment of the luxuriousness of the car.
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      10-05-2020, 11:27 AM   #412
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Hi

I have a 320i m sport G20 and i am on 9000 miles. And this sound got so much harder its now at the point like all wheel bearings are broken.
If the dealer cannot solve it i am trading this vehicle in. Its embarrassing to drive like this.
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      10-07-2020, 09:46 AM   #413
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If the conclusion of all the findings by N.I BMW OWNER point to G20/21 weight saving solutions being the culprit, why are some (most?) of the G20/21's quiet?
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      10-07-2020, 10:19 AM   #414
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Quote:
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If the conclusion of all the findings by N.I BMW OWNER point to G20/21 weight saving solutions being the culprit, why are some (most?) of the G20/21's quiet?
In my case it looks also a question of usage. My was way quieter in the beginning... now the noise is much more noticeable from lower speeds.
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      10-07-2020, 05:54 PM   #415
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In my case it looks also a question of usage. My was way quieter in the beginning... now the noise is much more noticeable from lower speeds.
That hints of it being more than let's say the static parts.

It suggests the generator/amplifier is something that is changing over time/use. Is it still possible to be wheel/tire and/or suspension bush related?

Is ambient temperature involved? At least in some cases?
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      10-07-2020, 05:55 PM   #416
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If the conclusion of all the findings by N.I BMW OWNER point to G20/21 weight saving solutions being the culprit, why are some (most?) of the G20/21's quiet?
That suggests it may be build quality and/or tolerance stacks.
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      10-26-2020, 01:11 PM   #417
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+1. I also have noticed annoying sound after 30km/h. It really depends on a road surface but having an opportunity to drive same roads on different cars I can say for sure g20 is much noisier.

Mine has 7th letter in VIN "F", its with xDrive, M-sport brakes but regular suspension. For me this is a sound of dead bearings.

If someone have tried replacing them and can confirm that was a case it would be very valuable, than we can go to BMW dealer and request replacement. If thats a problem of the way car is built/constructed I don't think BMW will ever admit the problem.

Last edited by AlexxZeman; 10-26-2020 at 01:12 PM.. Reason: fix typos
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      10-26-2020, 02:40 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by AlexxZeman View Post
+1. I also have noticed annoying sound after 30km/h. It really depends on a road surface but having an opportunity to drive same roads on different cars I can say for sure g20 is much noisier.

Mine has 7th letter in VIN "F", its with xDrive, M-sport brakes but regular suspension. For me this is a sound of dead bearings.

If someone have tried replacing them and can confirm that was a case it would be very valuable, than we can go to BMW dealer and request replacement. If thats a problem of the way car is built/constructed I don't think BMW will ever admit the problem.
I think you will find in this topic that wheel bearings have been changed on some examples. And not the solution.
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