[Fuller]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

BMW has had to live up to the "ultimate driving machine" hype they created. Mercedes created compact luxury vehicles that rode like silk...and they floated, bobbed, dipped and dived just like you'd think with those spring rates. They made sporty versions too, but they never said the C or E class was the "ultimate driving machine". BMW put out that moniker. So earlier 3-series cars were nice and tight driving machines, but with all they hype they've shot themselves in the foot going forward in the direction they are taking. I don't agree that you should have to go to a M3 to get a nice tight driving machine or that you need 400hp, modern turbos that give a lot of good torque down low are plenty and with a responsive and well tuned chassis, can be a lot of fun. But then you have to stretch out the gears at some point to get decent efficiency, so it's hard not to have something sacrificed. But older 3-series were pretty good all around. My brother's E90 was pretty fun, drove like it was on rails (in a good way). Made me want to get a BMW...except they took a huge nosedive at the same time.

Hell, it's not so much that I can disagree with them selling the public what they want, watered down platforms and SUVs for people to play with their phones in, but for the love of god, stop calling them the "ultimate driving machine".

I remember when I ordered the "track handling package", which was simply the adaptive dampers. Got the "oh, you don't need that unless you are using it on a track" line from the salesperson. That person had no freaking clue...this car, even with adaptive dampers, is so far removed from a track car that anyone that says that should be punched in the mouth immediately. My 2SS 1LE is lightyears ahead in that regard...as it should be though, as it's not masquerading as a sedan.

Everyone should know that the regular 3 series is not, and was never designed to be a track car. This should be simple common sense. It's a nice, entry level luxury commuter car, and that's all it ever was. It's grown in size, but then again, if you want a smaller car get a 2-series. Also, it should be clear that slogans like "ultimate driving machine" and option packages named "track handling package" are merely marketing. If anyone thinks that adaptive dampers make an xdrive 3er track worthy, they probably also believe in the tooth fairy.

Of course a camaro 1LE or whatever is going to best a bmw 3 series on the track. Then again it's the focus of that car to be a budget sports car, so it's no surprise. It's not something one would cross shop with a 3 series.

[anotheran]

Originally Posted by Fuller

Everyone should know that the regular 3 series is not, and was never designed to be a track car. This should be simple common sense. It's a nice, entry level luxury commuter car, and that's all it ever was.

Sounds like a fully loaded Camry... oh wait, a Lexus ES

Also, we should all remind BMW whenever they bring journalists to test a 3 series on a track like Laguna Seca or Portimao that they really didn't design their cars for the track and should really stop misleading us. And really, why does BMW even bother bringing test mules to the Nurburgring?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by martyl

You shouldn't have to add a track handling package to make the car drive like a BMW. It should come that way. After owning two 3 series, I bought a V6 Genesis. It's better as most of the reviews say. Plus I got tired of paying extra for every little thing on a BMW. They need to change that mindset.

BMW have been making cars that require options to make it drive and handle in a sporty way, add creature comforts than base, for generations. Not sure where the idea comes from that this is a new or recent thing.

[ecaedus]

Originally Posted by Fuller

Everyone should know that the regular 3 series is not, and was never designed to be a track car. This should be simple common sense. It's a nice, entry level luxury commuter car, and that's all it ever was.

i don't think that's what 3 series meant in the past, at least not to me. they were the "go-to" sport sedans. compact, playful, and a great value when compared to the dreadful A4 and C300 at the time. sure it's not designed as a track car, but that didn't take away any of the joy of driving it on the street or a canyon road. i certainly had my share of fun carving down angeles crest when i had mine. it was so much more than a luxury commuter car.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

I remember when I ordered the "track handling package", which was simply the adaptive dampers. Got the "oh, you don't need that unless you are using it on a track" line from the salesperson. That person had no freaking clue...this car, even with adaptive dampers, is so far removed from a track car that anyone that says that should be punched in the mouth immediately. My 2SS 1LE is lightyears ahead in that regard...as it should be though, as it's not masquerading as a sedan.

But aren't we talking 'marketing' again, with the track handling package. Isolate the adaptive damping to a stand alone option, and it is understood as a suspension that simply widens the working envelope. From BMW themselves; "The focus is on optimal customer benefit: as stiff as necessary, but as comfortable as possible".

To me, that is a totally different design brief than making a serious track car.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ecaedus

i don't think that's what 3 series meant in the past, at least not to me. they were the "go-to" sport sedans. compact, playful, and a great value when compared to the dreadful A4 and C300 at the time. sure it's not designed as a track car, but that didn't take away any of the joy of driving it on the street or a canyon road. i certainly had my share of fun carving down angeles crest when i had mine. it was so much more than a luxury commuter car.

Go back to the E30 as an example, there was a vast difference in models across the range. Here in the UK the base models didn't compare to the more highly optioned examples. Yes, the base models did drive a little better than most of the competition, but a well specified 323i/325i was in a different league.

Same for 5-series, it has always been about specification, and options. Even the well respected E39, needed the right options to make it a decent sport sedan.

Maybe some markets had restricted options, and the packages available gave the idea BMW had it right 'out of the box'. Not in Europe, we had all levels of models, base could be optioned towards luxury, base to decent sport setups. Same models could feel very different to drive, simply on specification.

It is a reason why many drivers would try a BMW and wonder what the hype was about. Try a different example, with the right options, and be blown away. Hasn't really changed, IMO.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Go back to the E30 as an example, there was a vast difference in models across the range. Here in the UK the base models didn't compare to the more highly optioned examples. Yes, the base models did drive a little better than most of the competition, but a well specified 323i/325i was in a different league.

Same for 5-series, it has always been about specification, and options. Even the well respected E39, needed the right options to make it a decent sport sedan.

Maybe some markets had restricted options, and the packages available gave the idea BMW had it right 'out of the box'. Not in Europe, we had all levels of models, base could be optioned towards luxury, base to decent sport setups. Same models could feel very different to drive, simply on specification.

It is a reason why many drivers would try a BMW and wonder what the hype was about. Try a different example, with the right options, and be blown away. Hasn't really changed, IMO.

The problem with this is that until recently, you can't option xDrive models with the lowered 704 M Sport suspension. In the US during the F3x generation, BMW only offered the 3 series wagon in xDrive. So that means anyone getting a 3 series wagon was stuck with a higher riding suspension.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by alex2364

The problem with this is that until recently, you can't option xDrive models with the lowered 704 M Sport suspension. In the US during the F3x generation, BMW only offered the 3 series wagon in xDrive. So that means anyone getting a 3 series wagon was stuck with a higher riding suspension.

Hasn't that always been the way with xDrive, sedans or wagons? BMW offered them as the 'All Weather' package.

XDrive in the F3x models, came to the UK as a bit of a surprise with limited suspension options. Was our first 3-series generation with xDrive, been a bit of a learning curve for some BMW users.

G20/G30 addresses the limited suspensions.

[JS919]

I picked up a 2019 330i with M-Sport package on Monday. After skimming through the C&D article I can say there are a lot of things I don't agree with. I'm not sure they are all that reliable of a source anyway, and I have felt that way for years. I guess I'm entitled to my own opinion?

The interior build quality, fit and finish, ergonomics, styling, and feel of controls is a major step forward over the F30. I ordered mine in cognac and mesheffect aluminum and I think it looks good for a car at this price point. Although, I'm not a fan of the all black interior and Tetragon aluminum trim.

The tech features that BMW offers in the new G20, I believe are second to none. If you're not into this stuff, it's probably going to be more annoying than a benefit. I like tech, so it's good for me.

The steering and handling are good, better than a similarly equipped F30. I think the track handling package with non-RFT tires would make a big difference. Mine came with Bridgestone Turanza T005 tires, these are semi high-performance touring tires, designed for a quiet ride and low rolling resistance, over steering feel and grip. Overall the feel and handling is nowhere close to my M3 CS, but it is really good for a daily driver. It is also smooth, quiet, and efficient. Maybe C&D would have had a more favorable opinion if they would have tested an RWD with the track handling package. I'm sure it would have made a world of difference in the steering feel and handling department.

I have owned both the current Audi A4 2.0T quattro S-Line and M-B C43 sedan. I'm a car nut, I buy a lot of them from many different brands. I'm not a brand loyalist. I think of the three the M-B has the lowest build quality and weird handling characteristics, maybe it just in 4Matic configuration? If you get on the throttle making a tight turn it feels almost like a FWD car where you have to fight the steering wheel to go the direction you want the car to go. I really liked the A4 overall, it was two years ago, and I don’t have any negative recollections of it. If I didn’t have a daily driver for commuting to work today and I was out shopping for a new car, I would get the G20 330i again, without hesitation.

I sometimes think people expect too much from cars in this segment. It’s a four-door sedan with a 4-cylinder engine. It designed to carry 4 people comfortably, with somewhat of a compliant ride. This isn’t a two-door sports car with twin turbo V6, designed for speed and handling. There must be compromises to appeal to a large audience of potential buyers, its BMW’s sales leader amongst cars. It’s designed to be a jack of all trades but a master of none, and that’s what I bought if for.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by alex2364

The problem with this is that until recently, you can't option xDrive models with the lowered 704 M Sport suspension. In the US during the F3x generation, BMW only offered the 3 series wagon in xDrive. So that means anyone getting a 3 series wagon was stuck with a higher riding suspension.

Yeah, US wagons were 328i or 328d xDrive automatics only. I'm sort of surprised they didn't just make it the 320i xDrive to further their false narrative that Americans don't buy wagons.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by JS919

I picked up a 2019 330i with M-Sport package on Monday. After skimming through the C&D article I can say there are a lot of things I don't agree with. I'm not sure they are all that reliable of a source anyway, and I have felt that way for years. I guess I'm entitled to my own opinion?

The interior build quality, fit and finish, ergonomics, styling, and feel of controls is a major step forward over the F30. I ordered mine in cognac and mesheffect aluminum and I think it looks good for a car at this price point. Although, I'm not a fan of the all black interior and Tetragon aluminum trim.

The tech features that BMW offers in the new G20, I believe are second to none. If you're not into this stuff, it's probably going to be more annoying than a benefit. I like tech, so it's good for me.

The steering and handling are good, better than a similarly equipped F30. I think the track handling package with non-RFT tires would make a big difference. Mine came with Bridgestone Turanza T005 tires, these are semi high-performance touring tires, designed for a quiet ride and low rolling resistance, over steering feel and grip. Overall the feel and handling is nowhere close to my M3 CS, but it is really good for a daily driver. It is also smooth, quiet, and efficient. Maybe C&D would have had a more favorable opinion if they would have tested an RWD with the track handling package. I'm sure it would have made a world of difference in the steering feel and handling department.

I have owned both the current Audi A4 2.0T quattro S-Line and M-B C43 sedan. I'm a car nut, I buy a lot of them from many different brands. I'm not a brand loyalist. I think of the three the M-B has the lowest build quality and weird handling characteristics, maybe it just in 4Matic configuration? If you get on the throttle making a tight turn it feels almost like a FWD car where you have to fight the steering wheel to go the direction you want the car to go. I really liked the A4 overall, it was two years ago, and I don't have any negative recollections of it. If I didn't have a daily driver for commuting to work today and I was out shopping for a new car, I would get the G20 330i again, without hesitation.

I sometimes think people expect too much from cars in this segment. It's a four-door sedan with a 4-cylinder engine. It designed to carry 4 people comfortably, with somewhat of a compliant ride. This isn't a two-door sports car with twin turbo V6, designed for speed and handling. There must be compromises to appeal to a large audience of potential buyers, its BMW's sales leader amongst cars. It's designed to be a jack of all trades but a master of none, and that's what I bought if for.

Originally Posted by JS919

I picked up a 2019 330i with M-Sport package on Monday. After skimming through the C&D article I can say there are a lot of things I don't agree with. I'm not sure they are all that reliable of a source anyway, and I have felt that way for years. I guess I'm entitled to my own opinion?

The interior build quality, fit and finish, ergonomics, styling, and feel of controls is a major step forward over the F30. I ordered mine in cognac and mesheffect aluminum and I think it looks good for a car at this price point. Although, I'm not a fan of the all black interior and Tetragon aluminum trim.

The tech features that BMW offers in the new G20, I believe are second to none. If you're not into this stuff, it's probably going to be more annoying than a benefit. I like tech, so it's good for me.

The steering and handling are good, better than a similarly equipped F30. I think the track handling package with non-RFT tires would make a big difference. Mine came with Bridgestone Turanza T005 tires, these are semi high-performance touring tires, designed for a quiet ride and low rolling resistance, over steering feel and grip. Overall the feel and handling is nowhere close to my M3 CS, but it is really good for a daily driver. It is also smooth, quiet, and efficient. Maybe C&D would have had a more favorable opinion if they would have tested an RWD with the track handling package. I'm sure it would have made a world of difference in the steering feel and handling department.

I have owned both the current Audi A4 2.0T quattro S-Line and M-B C43 sedan. I'm a car nut, I buy a lot of them from many different brands. I'm not a brand loyalist. I think of the three the M-B has the lowest build quality and weird handling characteristics, maybe it just in 4Matic configuration? If you get on the throttle making a tight turn it feels almost like a FWD car where you have to fight the steering wheel to go the direction you want the car to go. I really liked the A4 overall, it was two years ago, and I don't have any negative recollections of it. If I didn't have a daily driver for commuting to work today and I was out shopping for a new car, I would get the G20 330i again, without hesitation.

I sometimes think people expect too much from cars in this segment. It's a four-door sedan with a 4-cylinder engine. It designed to carry 4 people comfortably, with somewhat of a compliant ride. This isn't a two-door sports car with twin turbo V6, designed for speed and handling. There must be compromises to appeal to a large audience of potential buyers, its BMW's sales leader amongst cars. It's designed to be a jack of all trades but a master of none, and that's what I bought if for.

I've got the current a4. I'm not expecting some sort of race car, and previously also had a f30 m sport. i agree with you on the A4 it is very competent and I guess you can't really complain about much on it but it does drive a bit more front heavy. some might call it planted but I am looking at the g20 for end of year..... does the g20 for you feel as balanced and oversteery as the f30?

[xsracer]

Originally Posted by JS919

I sometimes think people expect too much from cars in this segment. It’s a four-door sedan with a 4-cylinder engine. It designed to carry 4 people comfortably, with somewhat of a compliant ride. This isn’t a two-door sports car with twin turbo V6, designed for speed and handling. There must be compromises to appeal to a large audience of potential buyers, its BMW’s sales leader amongst cars. It’s designed to be a jack of all trades but a master of none, and that’s what I bought if for.

There are plenty of capable 4 door sedans. Unfortunately, seems BMW is choosing to get market share from the likes of lexus. In fact, I know a few people who said they wouldn't buy BMW because it's "too harsh" and got lexus. By trying to appeal to that audience, BMW pisses off some other people. It is a business though and time will tell if it works. They're trying to hit mass market.

[BigSky702]

Why is it so difficult.

Just develop two lines:

- Cushy Lexus comfort that’ll roll and float like a boat
- Traditional BMW steering and handling

No need to check a ton of boxes besides exterior and interior styling.

It’s getting to the point you have to get an M car to retain some BMW DNA

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by anotheran

Sounds like a fully loaded Camry... oh wait, a Lexus ES

Also, we should all remind BMW whenever they bring journalists to test a 3 series on a track like Laguna Seca or Portimao that they really didn't design their cars for the track and should really stop misleading us. And really, why does BMW even bother bringing test mules to the Nurburgring?

Yes, manufacturers and testers bring cars to the track to test their limits. This doesn't mean that every car tested on a track is designed for the track..

[Fuller]

Originally Posted by ecaedus

i don't think that's what 3 series meant in the past, at least not to me. they were the "go-to" sport sedans. compact, playful, and a great value when compared to the dreadful A4 and C300 at the time. sure it's not designed as a track car, but that didn't take away any of the joy of driving it on the street or a canyon road. i certainly had my share of fun carving down angeles crest when i had mine. it was so much more than a luxury commuter car.

The 3 series has always fluctuated in regard to the fun/luxury balance from iteration to iteration. The 1st generation e30 was small and more on the sporty end of the spectrum. My understanding is that the subsequent generation, e36, was softer and more on the comfort end relative to the previous generation and that era. The e46 generation then brought back more of the visceral appeal.

Fast forward to f30, and it was clearly more inclined toward luxury than the e90 cars. I've not driven a g20 yet, but the majority of reviews by both main stream reviewers, and independent alike, have enjoyed it and thought it was a step back toward the fun end of the spectrum. The recent car and driver review is the first I've read that was less positive. I'm not going to allow it to sway my opinion until I have an opportunity to drive the car myself.

It seems like some members here are ready to condemn the car over one half-assed review, instead of approaching it with an open mind and driving it for themselves first.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Fuller

The 3 series has always fluctuated in regard to the fun/luxury balance from iteration to iteration. The 1st federation e30 was small and more on the sporty end of the spectrum. My understanding is that the subsequent generation, e36, was softer and more on the comfort end relative to the previous generation and that era. The e46 generation then brought back more of the visceral appeal.

Fast forward to f30, and it was clearly more inclined toward luxury than the e90 cars. I've not driven a g20 yet, but the majority of reviews by both main stream reviewers, and independent alike, have enjoyed it and thought it was a step back toward the fun end of the spectrum. The recent car and driver review is the first I've read that was less positive. I'm not going to allow it to sway my opinion until I have an opportunity to drive the car myself.

It seems like some members here are ready to condemn the car over one half-assed review, instead of approaching it with an open mind and driving it for themselves first.

History started even sooner, as I recall my E21 320i from 1976. It was considered more “lux” and less sporty than the 2002 it replaced. This conversation has been going on for almost half a century!

[WorldBFree]

My review of this review:

This reviewer lost all respect and credibility with me when he was bemoaning not having a volume knob next to the I drive controller. Wtf? I would never want this ... that is an open invitation for passengers to play with your volume-lol

I’ve never driven a f30 ... not trying to defend it ... but if it was so horrible why did CD not remove it from their 10 best list until 2015? Hmmmmmmm

Correction fail because they don’t offer a wagon? The 3 people who would have actually bought one will be severely disappointed! It’s like before you can be hired as an automive journalist you have to sign & notorize an agreement to profess your love for wagons in every article you write .... until the end of time. Pretty sure if we go to this guys home there won’t be a single wagon in site.

And of course the obligatory rant for not offering a manual. It is far easier to convert a Jew to Catholicism then a stick guy to any form of auto; however, I personally stopped caring about a manual when they killed the n/a I6.

Currently I’m still in my e90 ... ive been waiting for this generation to come out before trading in for a newer model. The only thing I really would change is the digital dash ... I personally prefer white on black physical analog gauges that glow orange at night the way god intended. In fact, I’d be willing to pay a few grand for the privilege. BMW is leaving money on the table ... offer a “classic gauge package” for $2000 ... but then again, a target market of 1? Lol

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

Without going into too much detail and having to write an essay on a forum, all I can say is, currently owning a R56 MINI, E90 3er and F36 4er Gran Coupe and getting to drive a G20 330i everyday, I strongly disagree with the C&D article.

I have a love/hate relationship with BMW and have no issue calling BMW out on things so I can call it as I see it. To me, the article is borderline hating. Behind all that text, all I read is the writer wishes he could take a C-Class and slap a BMW badge on it and call it the perfect car.

For me at the end of the day, is the G20 better than the F30 out of the gate? Absolutely. No question. Does the G20 330i xDrive drive as well, if not better than my F36 440i? It some aspects it does. The G20 should have been the car that succeeded the E90. It corrects a lot of things wrong with the F3X and in some aspects, it reminds me very closely to the E90 and that's something I could not even say or hint with my F36 and any F3X 3/4er.

Could not agree more.

C&D is a sorry joke of so called "Automative journalism". That publication has gone downhill since Csaba Csere and Brock Yates retired and left the magazine.

It used to be that Car and Driver for many years could not fault BMW for anything. Now their new favorite do no wrong marque is Mercedes Benz. Those people are sucking and milking hard the proverbial Daimler-Benz revenue tits.

Every new BMW review in the last few
Years has been nothing but a hate fest. Placing the E63 Benz above the M5 and M5 Competition should give you plenty of pause about these clown wanna bees. They should change their name to Mercedes Benz Driver.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by BigSky702

Why is it so difficult.

Just develop two lines:

- Cushy Lexus comfort that’ll roll and float like a boat
- Traditional BMW steering and handling

No need to check a ton of boxes besides exterior and interior styling.

It’s getting to the point you have to get an M car to retain some BMW DNA

Not everyone needs/wants race track ready bullets with jarring ride, heavy steering and aggressive suspension tuning to navigate through gridlock urban traffic that plagues the vast majority of major US metropolitan areas.

The hate for a comfortable and well balanced vehicle just needs to stop. The market has recognize where the majority preferences lie. Look how well Cadillac did with the small and stiff ATS sedan. No one bought and they are getting sunset soon if not gone already.

If some people want a hardcore BMW, then the M models are aimed at that audience with the according entrance fee.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Yeah, US wagons were 328i or 328d xDrive automatics only. I'm sort of surprised they didn't just make it the 320i xDrive to further their false narrative that Americans don't buy wagons.

Marketers and auto executives brain washed the US car buying public into the SUV/CUV fallacy. It is a fad that will eventually come to pass at some point in the future.

You have to understand that BMWUSA has no incentive to import touring wagons from Europe when the real cash cow is in their own backyard in Spartanburg, SC home of BMW X-Series SUV manufacturing.

They rather sell you any flavor of wagon on stilts (At substantially higher profits margins) than give US buyers that do not care for these vehicles (Like me) the option to pick a touring model instead.

The fact that we can't get here the excellent 5 Series G31 (And F11 before it) touring in this country is inexcusable. Mercedes here sells the E-Class wagon (Albeit at very low volumes but still) but not have access to the G31 which I would say vastly superior to a new X3 has no compelling reasoning in my book.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by WorldBFree

My review of this review:

This reviewer lost all respect and credibility with me when he was bemoaning not having a volume knob next to the I drive controller. Wtf? I would never want this ... that is an open invitation for passengers to play with your volume-lol

I've never driven a f30 ... not trying to defend it ... but if it was so horrible why did CD not remove it from their 10 best list until 2015? Hmmmmmmm

Correction fail because they don't offer a wagon? The 3 people who would have actually bought one will be severely disappointed! It's like before you can be hired as an automive journalist you have to sign & notorize an agreement to profess your love for wagons in every article you write .... until the end of time. Pretty sure if we go to this guys home there won't be a single wagon in site.

And of course the obligatory rant for not offering a manual. It is far easier to convert a Jew to Catholicism then a stick guy to any form of auto; however, I personally stopped caring about a manual when they killed the n/a I6.

Currently I'm still in my e90 ... ive been waiting for this generation to come out before trading in for a newer model. The only thing I really would change is the digital dash ... I personally prefer white on black physical analog gauges that glow orange at night the way god intended. In fact, I'd be willing to pay a few grand for the privilege. BMW is leaving money on the table ... offer a "classic gauge package" for $2000 ... but then again, a target market of 1? Lol

Agreed on all counts.

However, do you realize that the G20 comes standard with analog gauges? The bizarre digital ones are part of an optional package whose name escapes me now.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by xsracer

There are plenty of capable 4 door sedans. Unfortunately, seems BMW is choosing to get market share from the likes of lexus. In fact, I know a few people who said they wouldn't buy BMW because it's "too harsh" and got lexus. By trying to appeal to that audience, BMW pisses off some other people. It is a business though and time will tell if it works. They're trying to hit mass market.

It has worked well for them. If you want an old school BMW, then stick with the classics and call it a day.