08-10-2023, 09:13 AM | #67 | ||
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08-10-2023, 06:37 PM | #68 | |
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LL01 is LL01! It is based on minimum HTHS and fuel efficiency test which usually limits HTHS at 4cP. It can be ANY grade as long as HTHS falls into those values. KV100 and HTHS are two different measurements! I wrote extensively about it, search. You are shooting in the dark and throwing stuff you really didn’t research. And yes, 10W60 would be fine in your engine. Yes, turbo would spool bit slower, and mpg would take a bit if a hit, but it would be fine. By the way, people run Redline 15W50 in those engines on track. |
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08-10-2023, 07:36 PM | #69 | |
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08-11-2023, 03:47 AM | #70 | ||||
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HTST is only indirectly related to viscosity, it's tearing at temperature and high stresses. It's a good indicator of how the oil bears shearing at extreme conditions but it's not as hugely important as some people think because our engines will very rarely see 150C at that load; the boiling point of the HC-12/LC-18 coolant at a 50% mix is around 130C so if your engine sees 150C the oil shearing is the minor of your problems. Quote:
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Oil is also acts as a coolant and reducing the flow rate as you can guess is not good for it. For example, it's the main cooling component of the piston heads. And this is done by very precisely "snipping" a spray of oil pointing at the piston head passages when is at bottom dead. Guess what happens to that spray if the oil is too thick. It's also not good for the oil pump if it was not designed for thicker grades (which it wasn't). Thicker oil will also stress piston O-rings more leading over time to worse sealing, decreased compression and higher oil consumption. Quote:
Last edited by gorthol; 08-11-2023 at 04:06 AM.. |
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08-11-2023, 04:02 AM | #71 | |
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HTHS is everything. All BMW approvals are based on HTHS! CCP is important, but thick and thin debate is not about CCP but KV100 and VI doesn’t have anything to do with it. You read something, but you didn’t connect anything even close. Esthers (it is ester), AN’s, ZDDP. The fact that you are thinking that Redline 15W50 has elevated ZDDP content says enough. You obviously don’t have any idea what BMW people use on track (not teams) as you have never been there. I am not BMW engineer, but I worked on oil development. You don’t understand basic CCP and viscosity of oil at those temperatures. Otherwise, you wouldn’t mention “tight tolerances.” When someone mentions “tight tolerances “ I know they read something on Reddit or similar web site. |
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08-11-2023, 04:24 AM | #72 | ||||
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And just some more things that come to mind related to increased oil thickness as you should know on many engines piston heads are cooled by "sniping" a thin jet of oil into the piston head bottom oil passages when the piston is at bottom dead. Guess what happens to that jet when you increase the viscosity too much outside of the spec and if you can't try to guess peeing marmalade and trying to hit a target six feet away. Last edited by gorthol; 08-11-2023 at 04:34 AM.. |
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08-11-2023, 04:47 AM | #73 | |
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08-11-2023, 08:37 AM | #74 | |
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"Starting January 1, 2017, EPA requires that federal gasoline will contain an average of 10 ppm sulfur on an annual basis." The latest reference to Euro standards I could find is Euro 5 standard (EN 590:2009) implemented in January of 2009 that also specifies a 10ppm sulfur limit. So, the USA may have gotten there later, but seems to be in line with European regs. |
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08-11-2023, 09:23 AM | #75 | |
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Me as surprise. I must tell people I worked with that all this time we were wrong. HTHS is measured differently. It is viscosity at 150c. It is measured using SAME methodology as CCP measurements. Grade is IRRELEVANT in BMW approvals as well as MB (VW is the only one tying grade to approvals). 150c is normal temperature at certian engine parts and gives manufacturers far better indication of oil film where it matters as same grade (since that is range) can have far different HTHS value. 30 could mean anything. It could mean HTHS of 2.9 in some mediocre ILSAC XW30 oil or 3.58cP in Castrol Edge 0W30 or 3.7 in Redline Performance 5W30. Manuals are written in various ways and BMW’s one are usually half baked product to make sure people who don’t understand anything about oils can read it. They are not as bad as VW confusing manuals, but they are bad! Hyundai for example for 10yrs listed non-existent oil specifications in manual! As for your “marmelade pissing,” enlighten us what happens to that at -20c? Do you actually know what is centistoke of oil at -20c? Do you really think engines are built like that? Toyota in Australia allows 20W50 oils in same engines that use 0W8 and 0W16 oils in the US. It is all about CAFE! You do know that same engines are sold in the markets that have very high sulfur levels, different climate etc. that requires utilization of different oils? Mercedes in their manual, which is far better written than BMW’s one lists three approvals to use and what they mean: MB229.71 to maximize fuel economy MB229.61 to improve fuel efficiency. MB 229.51 for maximum protection (min HTHS 3.5cP). I didn’t look in internal of new MB 2.0T but I bet it has oil passages! You mentioned Redline bcs. I told you that people used it and went on rant about ZDDP bcs. you read that somewhere. Zinc is an issue if there is consumption. Zinc doesn’t hurt DPF/GPF, sulfated ash does. That is why in vehicles with that equipment BMW requires low-SAPS approvals like LL04. |
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08-11-2023, 09:24 AM | #76 |
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08-11-2023, 09:33 AM | #77 | |
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08-11-2023, 09:44 AM | #78 | |
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So US gasoline can still have a lot more sulfur than Euro one. |
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08-11-2023, 12:16 PM | #79 | |
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From business stand point, it does not make sense to have fuel from one rafinery that has very high sulfur levels (even before it was way below 85ppm). Oil recommendations for cars indicate what car manufacturers see at gas stations. All European companies moved to low-SAPS oils, BMW being, as usual, one very confusing. They recommend for example both Low-SAPS like LL17FE, and high-SAPS LL01FE. Mercedes moved completely to low-SAPS MB229.51/52 and MB229.71 as well as VW: VW504.00/507.00 and VW508.00/509.00. RS models get VW511.00. |
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08-12-2023, 12:38 PM | #80 |
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Interesting and informative thread. Here is what I do to sleep good at night:
2020M340i will use Liqui Moly 0w-20 now that my 3 dealer fills end. And, I sometimes wonder what the hell the dealer used. Their invoice says 0w-20? My 2005 330ci gets Mobil 1 0w-40. My 2022 Audi Q3 gets Liqui Moly 0w-20. That being said I'm sure our modern cars will die of electrical or transmission problems long before the engine wears out if you at least follow the manufactures oil change interval. I change once a year and never seem to put more than 7k in that time, so all is good. |
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08-13-2023, 04:05 AM | #81 | |||
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08-13-2023, 08:54 AM | #82 |
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Redline 5W30 has an HTHS of 3.7.
https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/f..._INFO_2022.pdf |
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08-13-2023, 12:35 PM | #84 |
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The thin vs. thick dabate is whether engines are ok using w20 or let’s say W40. It is not only debate regarding BMW, but all vehicles.
Only reason why there is move towards thinner oils is CAFE. Yes, it is related to HTHS as LL17FE is min 2.6Cp and max 2.9cp. That means be default 0W20 oils. Car manufacturers won’t put HTHS in manual as it is really confusing. In real world mpg between 0W20 and 0W40 for example, or HTHS 2.6 and 3.6 is not noticeable. In controlled environment, it is and for manufacturers it really matters if EPA says 25 or let’s say 27mpg. There are certain benefits to thinner oils. In short commute, thinner oils are better. Doing 2-3 miles one way, yes, in B48 0W20 is better than 0W40 as KV40 is lower. Now, when one makes car, calculation is not what enthusiasts want, but majority of buyers. Majority of buyers want fast car, good mpg. Can this oil get that car over finish line, meaning before buyer trades it in? That is what matters to manufacturers. To buyers too, unless buyer want long term vehicle or tracks vehicle. It seems some people here don’t understand that after Mazda Miata, BMW’s are most common vehicles on track, and people use all kind of oils on track, without problems. BMW, doesn’t care about track, unless M models. |
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08-13-2023, 12:37 PM | #85 | |
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08-13-2023, 02:17 PM | #86 |
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except KV40 ,shouldn't we consider other parameters like fuel dilution,DI engine fault injection ,short commute yes but fast acceleration etc.
isn't a higher hths help for all that? is a 3.6 hths enough for such use and all these tech parameters? |
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08-14-2023, 08:01 AM | #87 |
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Agreed, but the question I answered did not limit a response to those that either meet manufacturer's requirements or actually have approvals.
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08-14-2023, 08:15 AM | #88 |
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