[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Let’s take the E46 330i which had 230hp, a premium straight six, weighed 400lbs less than the G20, and had a manual transmission option. I owned one, it was my first BMW, and it was amazing. However If you just look at the 330i as a model, actually the g20 isn’t what it used to be and hasn’t moved the game on from an enthusiast perspective. I think it’s great you hold your 430i in such high regard, I liked my 330i a lot when I owned it. Finding joy in cars is one of life’s luxuries. But your not going to gaslight everyone else to your POV with out of place comparisons to 25 year old M3’s and fictional parking lot stories.

I'm not attempting to gaslight anyone.

330i is a beast

340i is beast+

I don't think that is controversial in the slightest. I don't think that one needs to put down the 30i to make the 40i seem more important than it is, especially when one can't take advantage of the only thing different (the engine) where, what, 90% of the buyers live, with our traffic and our speed limits and morons texting in the fast lane, etc.

[Davg31]

bavarianride Don't you want to get serious for two minutes? Comparing a car that was still on the road and on sale when the M340 came out is not comparable with one that came out over 20 years ago lol.
This post is getting ridiculous, nobody's saying that the 330i is a bad car, but stop trying to downgrade the M340 to justify your choice, it's ridiculous in the end (said with respect).

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by Dan B

1st off, I have never implied the 330i was anything other than a great car.

I'm very clear on that and appreciate your perspective.

Originally Posted by Dan B

And you are missing the point. Your subjective opinion is the 330i is a "beast" because it it comparable to an E36 M3. You are referencing power levels so I have to go with what you are stating. the 330i has "beast" power levels.

Objectively, the 330i is not a "beast". Neither was the E36 M3.

Let's dial this back because I think we're getting too deep in the weeds with definitions of slang terms.

My one and only point is that the 2024 330i is not automatically some second-rate grocery-getter slouch because it co-exists with the 340i.

Period, end of story. That's my point.

Originally Posted by Dan B

For objective comparison, a 1999 M3 0-60 was 6 seconds. The 1999 Corvette was 4.8 seconds. The respective 1/4 miles times were 14.9 and 13.2 seconds.

Does this mean the 330i is a bad car? Not at all. But it is FAR from a beast in any objective comparison.

330i = Beast

340i = Beast+

I don't see anything controversial or demeaning (to the 40i) or overreaching (to the 30i) in that statement be us comparing these cars to each other or to the 200 other cars in this midsize/coupe/sedan segment.

[Davg31]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

I'm not attempting to gaslight anyone.

330i is a beast

340i is beast+

I don't think that is controversial in the slightest. I don't think that one needs to put down the 30i to make the 40i seem more important than it is, especially when one can't take advantage of the only thing different (the engine) where, what, 90% of the buyers live, with our traffic and our speed limits and morons texting in the fast lane, etc.

In that case, buy an electric scooter, sell your house because some rooms are not being used, drink rainwater, etc. etc.

Don't confuse utility, necessity and pleasure, and once again I don't know many M340 owners who don't enjoy it a little between two traffic lights, or on a long journey, personally just starting it up in the morning in my garage, and the sound of the motor, saves me money on blue pills ;=) (humor)

But I perfectly understand the choice of a 320 or 330 for some people, just that having had both, we're far, far away from the same feeling.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Davg31

bavarianride Don't you want to get serious for two minutes? Comparing a car that was still on the road and on sale when the M340 came out is not comparable with one that came out over 20 years ago lol.
This post is getting ridiculous, nobody's saying that the 330i is a bad car, but stop trying to downgrade the M340 to justify your choice, it's ridiculous in the end (said with respect).

As mentioned in post#89, there are enthusiasts who respectfully compare G20 M340i to a 10-year F80 M3 as well, so it appears fair game to also respectfully compare g20 330i to a 20+ year old E36 M3.

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by madpistol

In a vacuum, the 330i is an amazing car for probably 90% of the normal population that will only buy Toyota and Honda for their entire lives. An M340i (and all other M-lite variants) are so far beyond overkill for a daily driver that most people will not ever get close to the limits of what those cars are capable of. The 330i, though, serves a different mission; comfortable, luxurious, German refinement, with a bit of sport thrown in. Anyone that has driven a Camry or Accord their entire lives will immediately notice the step up in refinement, as I did the first time I rode in my dad’s 430i GC. We are not the norm.

Extremely well written, madpistol.

In the spirit of looking at the cars in a vacuum, if one just looks at the 330i (or 430i if one wishes) it is a killer, a fantastic combination of power, torque, speed, nimbility, and luxury.

Most definitely a beast.

Similarly, look at the 340i, it is all of those things and a bit more, most definitely beast+

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by madpistol

In a vacuum, the 330i is an amazing car for probably 90% of the normal population that will only buy Toyota and Honda for their entire lives. An M340i (and all other M-lite variants) are so far beyond overkill for a daily driver that most people will not ever get close to the limits of what those cars are capable of. The 330i, though, serves a different mission; comfortable, luxurious, German refinement, with a bit of sport thrown in. Anyone that has driven a Camry or Accord their entire lives will immediately notice the step up in refinement, as I did the first time I rode in my dad’s 430i GC. We are not the norm.

Interestingly, this driver takes a F30 320i 184HP standard suspension(not M!) 16-inch wheels around Nurburgring in 9:40, he exemplifies "driving a slow(er) car fast", in a beastly way. It likely is hard to do the same in a Camry/Accord.

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

As mentioned in post#89, there are enthusiasts who respectfully compare G20 M340i to a 10-year F80 M3 as well, so it appears fair game to also respectfully compare g20 330i to a 20+ year old E36 M3.

Exactly. Thanks bavarian!

I am quite vexed as to why BMW enthusiasts can't bestow praise on the 330i when BMW has worked so hard to make it into the world-class performance sportscar it is.

If my 2024 daily driver is the performance equivalent of the 1999 M3 of my younger years with a hell of a lot more luxury and gobs of additional refinement, what the hell is wrong with that?

"Oh no, can't be speaking too complimentary on the 30i, tsk tsk, that minimizes the 40i, tsk tsk." Shut up already.

[Davg31]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

As mentioned in post#89, there are enthusiasts who respectfully compare G20 M340i to a 10-year F80 M3 as well, so it appears fair game to also respectfully compare g20 330i to a 20+ year old E36 M3.

Your article is ridiculous or you don't know the BMW market, the comparo are on the FL version released 2017 (two years before and not 10 years stop manipulating please) and still on sale at the time of the G20 release, I don't understand your way of thinking? bad faith ok, but this is worse than that (said with respect and humor)

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

There are articles and journalists and forum members that also compare G20 M340i to F80 M3(which came out 2014, or 10-year old model):

"The B58 3.0 liter turbo I6 in the M340i makes a whopping 382 hp (in North America) and that’s more than necessary to be fun. Plus, 0-60 mph happens in about four and a half seconds with all-wheel drive. That’s about as fast as the current F80 M3. Do you really need anything faster than that? Plus, it makes a fantastic noise and it’s going to be about $15,000 cheaper than the proper M3."

https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/03/29/b...uess-an-m-car/

It is quite common that enthusiasts seek out modern replacements of beastly cars of yesteryears, so I don't think toddwalton's comparison of G20 to E36 M3 is too unreasonable.

BTW, the same author also wrote a second article that correctly emphasizes that M340i is not a M3. To that extent, that author also pinpoints the key G20 DNA shared by 330i and M340i(thanks to the same chassis), namely, the beastly capability to take autobahn speeds.

"Some of its problem, if you can call it a problem, is it’s so extremely capable that it takes speeds that would warrant jail time to really feel how special it is. Anything short of that and it’s just a brutally fast cruiser. And if that’s what you’re looking for, then the BMW M340i is perfect. But if you’re expecting something that’s halfway to an M3, you might be left disappointed."

https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/09/16/t...l-a-great-car/

You are free to compare any 2 cars you wish but using a 25 year old car, that was never a beast for power, to make the case that the 330i is a beast, is flawed. The E36 M3 never had beastly levels of power. Overall performance? Sure. But the argument Todd is making is "beastly" power.

Using that logic I will make the case that the current 330i is an even better 8 passenger car than the E36 M3. <-- Neither is an 8 passenger car.

As far as how much power do you need? I guess that depends on the driver. Personally I agree with Mark Donahue - “If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower.”

Realistically though I do not got WOT every time I press the accelerator. But I do occasionally go WOT on on ramps and when passing the jerk texting in the left lane going 10 under that suddenly decides to speed up when I am passing them.

I also plan on going WOT a LOT at various track days and auto-x. So yeah, I can mak use of the extra power.

Finally, 99% of drivers don't corner or brake at 10/10s let alone 8/10s of a cars limits. But it is really easy to use 100% of it's acceleration. So I would argue power > handling when it comes to the overall enjoyment of a car for 99% of drivers.

[Davg31]

toddwalton But nobody here is saying that the 330i isn't an excellent car, just that it's not a sports car, a fast wagon certainly, a sedan ok, but not a sports car.

The M340 isn't a sports car either, but it comes very close, whereas the 330 is a long, long way off, but it's a superb car in its class. I wouldn't be complacent about driving a 330i, but I recognize its value and its level, and to be honest I wouldn't have had a 330i without it.

o be honest I would not have had the 540 B58 before my G 430, I would have kept it, but too much engine difference made me sell it and return to the B58, but it is my choice which is not not reason driven, but passion

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

330i = Beast

340i = Beast+

Using the benchmark you provided, power, neither is a beast. The M cars get closer but I would argue they are not beasts.

Vettes, 720S, , Blackwings, Hellcats etc... beasts.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Davg31

Your article is ridiculous or you don't know the BMW market, the comparo are on the FL version released 2017 (two years before and not 10 years stop manipulating please) and still on sale at the time of the G20 release, I don't understand your way of thinking? bad faith ok, but this is worse than that (said with respect and humor)

The article of post#89 quoted 4.5 seconds for G20 M340i 0-60, and that is inline with the 4.1 seconds from this webpage of a 2014 F80 M3, so that article compares G20 M340i to a 10-year old car.

https://accelerationtimes.com/models...oogle_vignette

[Paulskit]

This is about the difference between need and want. You don't need 382 bhp in M340i, nor you do need 258 bhp in 330i. The very basic 320i or even the 320d will cover every possible "need" with great margin. M340i is about "want". It fits nicely between 330i and M3. It fixes all points where 330i feels ordinary, while not compromising ride and comfort like M3. It's not perfect by any means, steering could've been more communicative, price could've been lower, etc. It just has that great balance of great performance and daily usability with character to put smile on your face every time you want it.

[blue_seather]

Guys, most people around me drive 70-90 bhp vehicles and are perfectly happy with their day-to-day nimbleness, even out in the countryside. And I live in the country with the lousiest speed limits after Germany.

Not a 330i, not even a 320i.. a 318i at 156 bhp is DOUBLE the power compared to what a ton of people are already used to and would seem like a rocket to them the first few days they ride in one. Sure, more power can actually save your life in certain situations but those are extremely rare and can usually be avoided with a bit of preemptive thinking, calmness and awareness instead.

So both the 330i and the M340i are plenty fast cars, no one can tell you otherwise unless he's full of bias and prejudice.

Now, about that "beast" word that gets thrown around here... Neither of them is a beast, as neither of them is an actual sports car. Hell, even the M3 isn't exactly a sports car for that matter. 330i, in terms of power alone, could've been considered a beast 30 years ago but who cares. In today's world of Veyrons, Plaids and Neveras even the M3 CS isn't exactly a beast but rather almost one.

The 330i is either for someone who wants a bit more just to be on the safe side or lacks the finances to go upper.

The M340i is for enthusiasts who want even more but either don't want to sacrifice comfort in an M3 or lack the finances to get one.

The funny thing is that 99% of the people driving both of the abovementioned vehicles will NEVER push them to their limits anyway.

It's as simple as that. Like I said in a previous comment, the M340i is perhaps a better value simply because of the fact that it lacks much competition in its segment and price point. The 330i has a ton of competition and is far more easily dispensable, but if you are someone that likes the way BMWs feel and drive, and FEEL the car (as that, albeit subjective, is probably the most important thing of all), it is a fairly reasonably priced nice little premium sedan with plenty of punch that's easily on par with the rest of the segment.

I'm not sure how something so simple escalated so much.

[Emily172013]

I'm 78yrs old and bought a M340i 4yrs ago and have never, ever, looked back. I haven't given a second though, or missed the $10k spent a few years ago. That's the car I wanted for some reason, so that's what I still love and enjoy.

Just drive both models and choose the one you want, they're both at the top of their class.

[the_abe]

Originally Posted by blue_seather

I'm not sure how something so simple escalated so much.

Because people are arguing over subjective terms that have no concrete definition, like beast or sports car.

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by the_abe

Because people are arguing over subjective terms that have no concrete definition, like beast or sports car.

I would argue that sports car is fairly well defined. And in reference to HP and beast, less than 300 HP in a normal street car is not beast.

In a 1500 pound car, 300 hp is beast.

[the_abe]

Originally Posted by Dan B

I would argue that sports car is fairly well defined.

What is the definition?

[jg4c]

Originally Posted by the_abe

What is the definition?

One common definition would be a 2 door only, and a 2 seater.
Also, defined as a roadster. Could also be a 2+2, but still 2 doors.

With an emphasis on dynamic performance, such as handling,
acceleration, top speed, etc.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by the_abe

What is the definition?

This is one definition.

"Sports cars were a post-World War II development of minimalist machines designed for carving corners on the narrow, twisting roads of Europe and Britain."

I would say the G20 330i is a sports car by this definition based on how it holds off the Tesla's in local tight connectors.

https://www.popsci.com/technology/pe...ars-explained/

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by the_abe

What is the definition?

One common definition would be a 2 door only, and a 2 seater.
Also, defined as a roadster. Could also be a 2+2, but still 2 doors.

With an emphasis on dynamic performance, such as handling,
acceleration, top speed, etc.

Quoting the same source as jg4c with an added emphasis on the word "emphasis". Unintentionally punny.

Now quoting you.

"Sports cars were a post-World War II development of minimalist machines designed for carving corners on the narrow, twisting roads of Europe and Britain."

Small, nimble, traditionally minimalist 2 door cars with an emphasis on performance is to me, what sports car were originally.

Modern times and regulations have forced some changes. Crash survivability, hands free phones, navigation, climate controls, etc... have made sports car larger and heavier.

And I hate to tell you, but Teslas are not sports cars, so beating an unknown skill level driver in a Tesla on an on/off ramp does not make the 330i a sports car.

However, I would argue that the 330i is a LOT closer to a sports car than the Tesla. But I would still label it a sports sedan. And that is not a knock. It is a compromise between a sports car and a sedan. The best of both for someone who wants the fun of a sports car but sacrifices a bit to get the practicality of a sedan.

The M2 or Supra are to me, modern sports cars. Yes there are others like a GT3/GT4 etc.. but those are more real world examples for the masses.