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      01-28-2019, 10:45 PM   #111
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this time no "M" for me... thinking about the new 911
Same here! If comp m3 isnt offered in manual + awd its a dealbreaker for me, especially if it nears 100k. At that point id rather go porsche 911 992 gts and spare myself the absurd depreciation, plus have an EVEN MORE iconic car than the m3
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      01-28-2019, 10:54 PM   #112
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Slowly closing in on 911 territory, 20% increase is pretty substantial. Next time around will require quite a bit of shopping other products, unless I cherry pick an F80-82. Decisions.....
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      01-28-2019, 11:03 PM   #113
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Even the M-class cars are having the 6MT limited... going to miss the prospect of a new M4 or Base 4-series 2DR coupe with a 6MT...
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      01-28-2019, 11:51 PM   #114
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I like this whole idea. It makes my next car purchase substantially easier. I won't buy a sports car/performance oriented car without a manual transmission. And I won't buy it unless it's an honest effort by the manufacturer to give me what I want. So I will be driving a Porsche in place of any new M product. I love my M2 Competition though
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      01-29-2019, 12:58 AM   #115
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1) what are the benefits and down sides to manual
2) the AWD version has the ability to switch to RWD. in this case what are the benefits and down sides to AWD?

thanks
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      01-29-2019, 01:38 AM   #116
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Do you think that the Pure model is going to be a lightweight version? Otherwise I don't understand why they'd have a model thats more "basic" than the base version.

As an aside - I hate that MB & BMW are now having these higher-end versions of the AMG & M cars that have more performance than standard AMG/M cars. It used to be that getting an M3 meant you were getting the best performance car BMW could make on the 3-series platform. Now it feels to me that M3 is being artificially restrained so that they can demand more money for the real best performance car they can make: the M3 Competition or whatever they call it. If they follow MB (and they will - BMW has shown that they will copy literally everyone this past decade) then the price difference between the M3 and the "actually this is really the M3" will be +$8k.
Merc and Audi are no longer competitors since they're offering heavier and unbalanced cars, respectively. BMW has left with Alfa and Cadillac (which don't have the value or the image) and the only way to go is towards Porsche; and since you cannot sell at the same time a base M3/4, along with a CS, CSL and finally a GTR (į la E46), hypothetically, to go after all the 911 based GT cars Porsche has to offer, they're starting with these baby steps to let the public get used to the idea.

If you pay attention to some of the so-called "car fans videos" posted here and there, you'll find, in fact, sponsored vids with older M3s driven along same age 911s. Saw one with a 2002 along with an early gen 911, both red, one after another, at an event. This is pure integrated marketing.

More than anything, I don't quite understand why BMW hasn't started earlier with a more diverse M3 offering.

So, basically, Merc started with Black Series models after they saw how successful was the modern M3 CSL. But you simply cannot compare a CLK DTM AMG with its E46 counterpart. Hah.

Later edit: CLK DTM instead CLK GTR

Last edited by b.oom; 01-29-2019 at 09:55 AM..
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      01-29-2019, 02:05 AM   #117
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1) what are the benefits and down sides to manual
2) the AWD version has the ability to switch to RWD. in this case what are the benefits and down sides to AWD?

thanks
1) Manual Benefits: the connected experience. Less expensive. Weights less. Extra pedal
Manual Downsides: slower shifting, can't drink your latte while heel-toeing, traffic woes

2) AWD Benefits: Faster 0-60, extra grip to accelerate sooner in cornering, wet performance, forgivable driving characteristics
AWD Downsides: Heavier, not as easy to maintain a "drift", more understeer, slightly more drivetrain loss of power.

The G80 will be interesting. 2020 is just in time for me to consider another M3 in 2021 when hopefully it will get more refined.
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      01-29-2019, 02:11 AM   #118
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How much more money is BMW going to charge for the pure over the base, I wonder
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      01-29-2019, 03:02 AM   #119
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Having gone through 3 iterations of the F8x M3/4 I’m keen to not make the same move next time round. I absolutely love the pared back nature of the M4CS and the idea of the pure M4 really appeals. Having had 2 DCT M3’s (non comp and comp) I’d have gone for 6MT in the CS, just to have a completely different driving experience.

I’m not going to say 6MT is necessarily better or worse, but it’s become almost a novelty nowadays in a performance car to change your own gears, and I definately fancy it next time.

The 18/19” wheels concerns me, as this size would likely mean no optional CCB with 18’s.
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      01-29-2019, 04:04 AM   #120
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I’m a purist. Give me the 6MT + cloth seats + RWD all day long.

This is all good news to me.



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      01-29-2019, 04:42 AM   #121
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Don't mind the pure has less hp if it's more useable all the time with rwd and hopefully lower weight, though I don't ever see bmw going GT3 RS route
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      01-29-2019, 06:21 AM   #122
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by 10" View Post
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Originally Posted by eeyang92 View Post
I think the Pure version having less power (and by some rumors, a lesser engine) makes a hard sale, regardless if it came in MT or AT. People trying to frame this as "MT guys got what they asked for" are missing the point.

Like some other members have said, when you buy an M, you sort of expect to get 100% of BMWs effort at that moment in time (sans transmission choice, since that is a very personal choice). By dropping $70-80k on a car that BMW only put 90% into leaves a sour taste in your mouth, especially when there are so many great options out there for those who aren't stuck on getting a sedan.

I was originally thinking about upgrading to a MT M3, but I am really on the fence about this.
HP doesn't matter. The feel of the car matters. I'd take a 275hp car with a manual over a 450hp car with a terrible ZF gearbox any day of the week.
Pretty soon you're going to have to.
I literally don't mind at all...prefer simplicity over crappy transmissions and electronic gizmos. Would much rather have a Hyundai N than a next gen M car
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      01-29-2019, 06:22 AM   #123
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LemonOne View Post
Interesting to see how many people will take Pure+Manual+RWD.
the problem is that last time i read that the pure model will be more bare bones. i hope thats not the case. i dont track my cars; i want a manual and creature comforts. HUD, CA, heated seats, etc. if they strip away the pure model than i'm afraid it wont sell well
Not to be rude, but why by a Motorsport car if you want conforts? A 340i will be wya cheaper, and way more suited to your needs.

An M car is set up for tracking, and why would you want power you can't use and suspension that transfers bumps to your back?
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      01-29-2019, 06:28 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.oom View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coni View Post
Do you think that the Pure model is going to be a lightweight version? Otherwise I don't understand why they'd have a model thats more "basic" than the base version.

As an aside - I hate that MB & BMW are now having these higher-end versions of the AMG & M cars that have more performance than standard AMG/M cars. It used to be that getting an M3 meant you were getting the best performance car BMW could make on the 3-series platform. Now it feels to me that M3 is being artificially restrained so that they can demand more money for the real best performance car they can make: the M3 Competition or whatever they call it. If they follow MB (and they will - BMW has shown that they will copy literally everyone this past decade) then the price difference between the M3 and the "actually this is really the M3" will be +$8k.
Merc and Audi are no longer competitors since they're offering heavier and unbalanced cars, respectively. BMW has left with Alfa and Cadillac (which don't have the value or the image) and the only way to go is towards Porsche; and since you cannot sell at the same time a base M3/4, along with a CS, CSL and finally a GTR (á la E46), hypothetically, to go after all the 911 based GT cars Porsche has to offer, they're starting with these baby steps to let the public get used to the idea.

If you pay attention to some of the so-called "car fans videos" posted here and there, you'll find, in fact, sponsored vids with older M3s driven along same age 911s. Saw one with a 2002 along with an early gen 911, both red, one after another, at an event. This is pure integrated marketing.

More than anything, I don't quite understand why BMW hasn't started earlier with a more diverse M3 offering.

So, basically, Merc started with Black Series models after they saw how successful was the modern M3 CSL. But you simply cannot compare a CLK GTR AMG with its E46 counterpart. Hah.
I think BmW does compete with Audi. That's why they opted to Do the M340i meme. Directly parallels Audi's S line.

Thé M cars do seem to match up with Porsche's nomenclature though.
Base-Base
S- Competition
911 T - Pure
911 GTS - CS

CSL and the rest differ though. 911s go way up in power BMWs don't. BMWs also aren't really competing directly anyway. Who cross shops a 3800 lb 4 door with a 2+2 at 3k lbs?

Also the Turbo is a GT car. Not set up to track at all. No BMW parallel unless you count M5 I suppose
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      01-29-2019, 06:57 AM   #125
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444hp Pure should come with Hydraulic Steering....that will be real Pure!
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      01-29-2019, 07:00 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonOne View Post
Interesting to see how many people will take Pure+Manual+RWD.
Not as many as if they were offered with the fully optioned cars. BMW just trying to phase them out and using low sales to justify it. Such a shame.
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      01-29-2019, 07:34 AM   #127
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Quote:
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Interesting to see how many people will take Pure+Manual+RWD.
Not as many as if they were offered with the fully optioned cars. BMW just trying to phase them out and using low sales to justify it. Such a shame.
What do you mean they are trying to phase them out?
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      01-29-2019, 07:37 AM   #128
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Nobody thinks manuals are better performance anymore. That ship sailed long ago. But the experience of driving a car is more fun to me with a manual transmission, and almost no amount of power will change that equation.
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      01-29-2019, 07:37 AM   #129
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This whole lower hp for the manual because they don't have a unit capable is complete bs. My F10 has 560HP and 500lb-ft and it was a manual. Hell my old GT500 had 660HP and it was fine. The tires were shot but who cares. Isn't there a manual Hellcat? Shieeeeet...

From Top Speed

"What's clear is that the faster, winged and roll-caged versions of the M3 and M4 like the CS and (if rumors prove to be correct) the CSL won't get a manual simply because BMW does not have a manual that can cope with over 480 pound-feet of torque that the super-fast versions will unarguably put out."
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      01-29-2019, 07:57 AM   #130
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I doubt there will be an AWD + manual version. The complexity of the M-AWD system and control software probably relies a lot on having control of the transmission as well.

Developing the AWD system + manual for such a tiny percentage of sales wouldn't be worth it.
It has already been said that the higher HP versions W/ MT are not possible due to the higher HP and the fact that the current manual tranny cannot handle it.
It handles it just fine on tuned cars. It's a load of crap. Bean counters are in charge in Munich. I love how people say Dual clutch transmissions are dead. They're only dead at BMW. DCT (PDK) is alive and well at the last remaining German performance enthusiast brand. Porsche.

BMW is too busy making SUVs for soccer mommy's and Audis for everyone on here that wants AWD in their performance BMW. Sad!
Just because transmission aren't exploding as soon as a car is tuned doesn't mean "it handles the power fine."

A transmission is designed to withstand a certain amount of stress in order to be reliable under all conditions for some amount of miles.

Exceeding that stress reduces performance or increases the likelihood of failure. Period. Either BMW is willing to accept that increased risk of failure, or they will need to improve the design.

It's called a safety factor, and it's a basic tenant of engineering. You have no way of knowing what the design limits of this trans are or what it would take to handle the extra 46hp.
FYI. There are many people with both manual and DCT F80/82s with a shit ton of tuned miles on the odometer. Say 20,000+ tuned miles.

Would you consider that "some amount of miles"? Ya. I would

So it's safe to say that extra 46hp ain't doing shit.
Lol, no. That's not how engineering works.
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      01-29-2019, 08:00 AM   #131
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I doubt there will be an AWD + manual version. The complexity of the M-AWD system and control software probably relies a lot on having control of the transmission as well.

Developing the AWD system + manual for such a tiny percentage of sales wouldn't be worth it.
It has already been said that the higher HP versions W/ MT are not possible due to the higher HP and the fact that the current manual tranny cannot handle it.
It handles it just fine on tuned cars. It's a load of crap. Bean counters are in charge in Munich. I love how people say Dual clutch transmissions are dead. They're only dead at BMW. DCT (PDK) is alive and well at the last remaining German performance enthusiast brand. Porsche.

BMW is too busy making SUVs for soccer mommy's and Audis for everyone on here that wants AWD in their performance BMW. Sad!
Just because transmission aren't exploding as soon as a car is tuned doesn't mean "it handles the power fine."

A transmission is designed to withstand a certain amount of stress in order to be reliable under all conditions for some amount of miles.

Exceeding that stress reduces performance or increases the likelihood of failure. Period. Either BMW is willing to accept that increased risk of failure, or they will need to improve the design.

It's called a safety factor, and it's a basic tenant of engineering. You have no way of knowing what the design limits of this trans are or what it would take to handle the extra 46hp.
FYI. There are many people with both manual and DCT F80/82s with a shit ton of tuned miles on the odometer. Say 20,000+ tuned miles.

Would you consider that "some amount of miles"? Ya. I would

So it's safe to say that extra 46hp ain't doing shit.
Lol, no. That's not how engineering works.
Tell that to all the guys running high HP tuned cars for thousands upon thousands of miles with ZERO issues
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      01-29-2019, 08:06 AM   #132
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Imagine this dick move from bmw:
Sells S55 in pure for 2 model years; emissions get stricter and they drop a S58 into the pure later.
Won't be the first time for BMW
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