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      07-06-2019, 01:19 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by SchwarzerReiter View Post
That wont happen. The EU is forcing manufacturers to downsize their engines, the new self driving technologies force electric steering, and all the safety regulations and new technologies add weight.
Also, everytime you see a review where they go about how X car has 1 more centimeter of leg room as opposed to the other, it leads to a size race. Nowadays the 3 series is like the 5 series of a few years back. Just buy the 2 series i guess. Or you could always buy an old BMW.
Forget EU. Who would buy a car that has candle like lights, 6 cylinder “gem(!)” of engines that are slower than Golf GTI and less efficient than X7 M50i?
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      07-06-2019, 01:34 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
So ditch the amazing laser lights and bring back dimmer lights, slower and less efficient engines that gives half the power burns twice the gas, and analogue gages that even Kias don’t have at this point. So brilliant! This way BMW can be acquired by VW or Tata in a couple of years!

I hope BMW doesn’t let people who think like this in the building.
What joy of driving do silly laser lights provide?
How about muted turbos with fake engine sounds?
The digital gauges look like crap and don’t provide the cool 3D design/details like the Analog gauges do. Like comparing Apple watch to a Rolex.

It doesn’t have to be 1 or the other.
Let the regular models be efficient and tech driven but at least allow the ///M brand to still offer visceral, raw, NA engine powered cars. Porsche has done this beautifully with their GT car lineup.
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      07-06-2019, 02:23 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by joshuastein55 View Post
I guess the rumors were true.

Hopefully the new CEO will push BMW to be more focused on driver's cars again.
The downturn started before Kruger, so he should not take the blame for that. Under his watch some of the earlier missteps were partially redressed . For instance the G20 is an improvement over the F30. The current 5 is a better driver's car than the former one. The G01 is pretty good as a driver's SUV.

As for BMW returning to its roots with the driver's focus some of us wish for, I'd say fat chance. BMW, and all auto makers have way too much to worry about with electric cars, driverless cars, and the potential that fewer may want or need cars as services like Uber flourish.

Not to mention that BMW has dramatically increased the number of vehicles delivered by making their cars appeal to a wider audience. With all these changes in the auto industry and the substantial investment they demand, BMW will not be able to cater to a niche, albeit very loyal, customer group.
Sorry...I haven't seen any return of BMW to its roots. I see them drifting further and further away every month. AWD M cars with no manual opinion? FWD entry level BMWs?

I see BMW drifting towards becoming Audi Jr. at the moment and it's really quite troubling. The brand seems lost in the pursuit of sales.

The sole bright hope is the M2 and it's still too complicated and heavy.

I hope there is a retro-lightweight resurrection in the next few years a throwback sports coupe but I'm not betting on it based on what I'm seeing.
I'm with you 100% on the size and weight of cars and just sheer handling. BMW is never going to return to that. I said they partially redressed some issues in the G20 and more recent models. They are better than their immediate predecessors like the F30.

When my F30 lease was done 2 years back, I actually bought an E46. I recall after test driving the G20, I thought my E46 is much better than this and I told the CA as much. Eventually, after a couple months, I decided to make the switch from the E46 to G20 because I wanted a newer car with some of the extra amenities. The G20 is a very good car, but no it does not handle like an E46.
It is not as involved as E46 but I wouldn't say it can't handle as well, it sure can just without connection, pretty sure Ring time on modern BMW are faster
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      07-06-2019, 02:25 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by R N M View Post
I drove the M5 Competition during the M Town tour event.
Wow - i was really disappointed in this car.

Is it Fast - hell yes. But there is no sensation of speed. Engine noise is muted and exhaust sound is just not great. My F80 M3 Comp is more raw, agile with way better steering feel.
I’m not sure why this new M5 is getting decent reviews - to me it felt like a big, fast, disconnected, luxury car. The auto transmission is slower than DCT and doesn’t bang through gears like i can on my M3.

The E9x cars were the last great ones. Still had pure driving character and decent modern technology.
Well if you want to feel bang, they can make it with more turbo lag...
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      07-06-2019, 02:28 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by R N M View Post
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Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
So ditch the amazing laser lights and bring back dimmer lights, slower and less efficient engines that gives half the power burns twice the gas, and analogue gages that even Kias don’t have at this point. So brilliant! This way BMW can be acquired by VW or Tata in a couple of years!

I hope BMW doesn’t let people who think like this in the building.
What joy of driving do silly laser lights provide?
How about muted turbos with fake engine sounds?
The digital gauges look like crap and don’t provide the cool 3D design/details like the Analog gauges do. Like comparing Apple watch to a Rolex.

It doesn’t have to be 1 or the other.
Let the regular models be efficient and tech driven but at least allow the ///M brand to still offer visceral, raw, NA engine powered cars. Porsche has done this beautifully with their GT car lineup.
You want M to be like Porsche, then M3 will get its own N/A engine then I guess at least 2X the price, who would buy such BMW?
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      07-06-2019, 03:48 PM   #94
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I'm glad for this.

They should have somebody more charismatic as a CEO. I always felt discomfort while listening his speeches.

Second, no one else to blame when sales are going up and profit is going down, unacceptable.

I hope they will finally bring somebody who is not German to the CEO position, BMW management should be more international, not just bunch of uninspiring German men.
I think the problem with BMW now it's too litte German. Too much effort to please the Chinese/american marked. That will hurt them in the long run. Now a BMW is more bling than a Cadillac. And front wheel drive? Come on.

When I go to gernany for vacation i want no speed limits, pilsner and sausages. Not sushi and white wine.

Last edited by Touring; 07-06-2019 at 04:01 PM..
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      07-06-2019, 04:01 PM   #95
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I really thought once Bangle was gone, BMW would return to its older pure lines... Wrong... They even put in monster grill I really despise... I hope got a big huge turn, both in mechanics and design, but maybe it is just me...
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      07-06-2019, 04:12 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Touring View Post
I think the problem with BMW now it's too litte German. Too much effort to please the Chinese/american marked. That will hurt them in the long run. Now a BMW is more bling than a Cadillac. And front wheel drive? Come on.

When I go to gernany for vacation i want no speed limits, pilsner and sausages. Not sushi and white wine.
This comment would be noteworthy only if BMW was the only luxury automaker to do this but BMW's main competitors in MB and Audi have had FWD offerings for some time. BMW isn't going to out-sell MB without FWD offerings and it's like some of you don't quite understand that catering to the hardcore audience is not how automakers become successful. BMW isn't Porsche and it's never going to be. They need to sell passenger vehicles in high volume to remain sustainable.
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      07-06-2019, 04:43 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
They need to sell passenger vehicles in high volume to remain sustainable.
...and in the USA market, Ford has given up on trying to sell sedans/coupes because everyone wants a pickup or SUV. How many sedans can BMW sell here?????
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      07-06-2019, 05:19 PM   #98
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Profit profit profit! It's a business first.
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      07-06-2019, 05:46 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R N M View Post
What joy of driving do silly laser lights provide?
How about muted turbos with fake engine sounds?
The digital gauges look like crap and don’t provide the cool 3D design/details like the Analog gauges do. Like comparing Apple watch to a Rolex.

It doesn’t have to be 1 or the other.
Let the regular models be efficient and tech driven but at least allow the ///M brand to still offer visceral, raw, NA engine powered cars. Porsche has done this beautifully with their GT car lineup.
I was responding to a message, which suggested that BMW should bring back halo lights. And laser lights are far from silly.

Also, those “muted turbo engines with fake sounds’” are masterpieces, and miles ahead of anything BMW did in the past. Of course they will get more muted and isolated, because that’s technology. Since he invention of ICE, engines got more refined, quieter, less rattly, smoother all the time... and that’s for the better. That’s the result of engimeering, technology and progress. I had a 330i with the NA 272HP inline 6, I had an M3 with the NA V8; the ‘muted’ B58 in the 540i is miles ahead of both of them. Buttery smooth, beautiful sound coming from a distance, amazingly fast when pushed yet it’s comfortable and smooth in the city, and can do 30+ mpg on the highway. That’s engineering, that’s technology. You can get an old Lada with a busted exhaust if you want your car to shake with the engine, and hear a lot of sound. All the the cars will get even smoother and more refined by time, and that’s a good thing. Diminishing the absolute best engines in the industry into ‘muted turbos with fake sounds’ is extremely cynical, sounds like a populist politician who’s trying to misinform and misdirect the people.
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Last edited by Cortexiphan; 07-06-2019 at 05:54 PM..
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      07-06-2019, 05:49 PM   #100
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This world is overrun by gigantic SUV’s. Sad, very sad. I was afraid this would happen. If you’re not driving an SUV, then you’re doing it wrong.
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      07-06-2019, 08:06 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
You want M to be like Porsche, then M3 will get its own N/A engine then I guess at least 2X the price, who would buy such BMW?
911.2 GT3 i built to my specs was $158k.
You can build a regular 911 S or GTS to exceed that.

Same with GT4 they are not double the price of regular Cayman.

Having said all that I would personally pay a premium for a hardcore NA ///M car as would many other enthusiasts.
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      07-06-2019, 08:31 PM   #102
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Bmw currently has zero high output NA engine, would think quite an effort (financially) to put in one to two cars.

Even Ferrari has to go turbo, for bragging right purpose you can't have M3 with anything <500hp and M5 < 600hp, and to have same 0 to 60 performance given NA torque curve you will either have to cut weight drastically or even more hp, more then just a M car thing, imagine the whole line up has to change.

I suppose the most possible way to do this is a M only model then they can go crazy but not sure how financially feasible it is, and if a M only car is not a "super car", then it kind mess up the line up. Can you imagine a M only car goes slower than M8 Competition?
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      07-06-2019, 11:12 PM   #103
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Not sure what everyone thinks a CEO can do but head design is not one of their hats. Much like a president they have options that are viable to chose from and some may not like the choices made. A new CEO won't save the BMW brand you think you know and love because of climate but they could vaguely steer in a given direction at best. Hopefully our successor can head in a new vague direction that is more approved but unlikely. Be ready for the same emissions governed stuff (twin turbs & no NA & fat overweight cars with useless subscription electronics).
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      07-07-2019, 07:20 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Attachment 2092468

Per Automotive News:
Interesting development but please no more production guys at the helm. We need development/ R&D gurus to bring back design and leadership in the range.
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      07-07-2019, 07:53 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Actually, it’s the opposite. In the 80s and 90s, most people considered cars to be more of an identity, a sign for wealth and prestige. Now, people care less about branding. That’s why BMWs need to be better than ever, and they are.
That’s why the amount of engineering and design going to these vehicles are exponentially more than ever. That is why saying that “Oh BMWs are just branding now” is a misplaced insult to the engineers.
50% 50% weight distribution, usage and development of composite materials and carbon fiber, safety, engines that can give you sub 5 seconds 0-60 times while doing 35 mpg, incredibly capable infotainment systems, amazing smoothness and refinement all around the range, big SUVs that can stay flat in fast corners... Engineers from the past can only dream of these things. And old cars are more about brand, new ones are more about engineering.
You mean software engineering. All buyers care about in todays market IS branding and how cool the MMI/GUI is. LOL.
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      07-07-2019, 09:34 AM   #106
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I just don't understand how it's a tale of two distinctly different companies even though the one is flying under the main banner of the one people are complaining about. For those that don't get what I'm saying, it's the BMW Motorad division. Everything people are complaining about with what has been lost with the 4 wheeled products has not been lost on the two wheeled products.

I just did 4 full track days with the older gen S1000RR in May and the bike continues to impress. From what I understand the current updated gen RR provides even more improvements to what I feel is an awesome package.

I wonder what the differences are with management philosophies/structure between the two divisions? One can say that you can't compare operations with motorcycles and autos. But I'll argue the M division would be a pretty close match and even with the M division there's been dissatisfaction.
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      07-07-2019, 09:54 AM   #107
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Ahhh i figured after the latest statements regarding EV development and the critic for not pushing the BMW i segment harder i guess this was expected.

Now we should see CEO who pushes for excellent EV driver cars, considering ICE vehicles are easy these days to make driver orientated with all the experience they got pretty much everyone knows how to do a proper ICE vehicle now lets see them do a proper BMW M i Car with a range of 500-600 km/h and a real proper drivers car. Looking forward for BMW's future now.
I think we see this management failure in the slow roll-out of the next generation of PHEV's. Almost a full year gap between the end of the F-generation of PHEV's and the G-generation. Except for left-overs on dealer lots, it seems there are no PHEV's currently available in the USA. Just now hitting Europe, with US availability postponed to 2020.
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      07-07-2019, 10:03 AM   #108
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Basically...it's the luddites that claim to be "purist" or an "enthusiast" lol
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      07-07-2019, 11:33 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by rjd598 View Post
“After four years as CEO, I want to seek new challenges and apply my extensive international experience in new tasks and projects."

You mean mess up another company? Automakers beware of this guy’s resume.
BMW has launched a massive product offensive the past 2-3 years under his leadership. After dwindling for much of the decade BMW’s products have improved, and I think their North American sales are recovering along with it.
I agree that bmw was already facing some challenges, and was at somewhat of a crossroads when Krueger took the helm. He inherited leadership of the company during a challenging time for bmw, and the auto industry as a whole. He's only been ceo for four years. He's likely set in motion, initiatives that might very well be a step in the right direction, but we won't see the fruits of these ideas until after he's out.

It's clear that he doesn't enjoy being in the spotlight, and wants to leave the position. This doesn't necessarily mean that he botched anything.

Looking forward, the auto industry is at a challenging, but potentially exciting crossroads. The decisions bmw makes in the coming years will do a lot to make or break the brand. Will they go down as the brand that defined the compact luxury car of the 90s and 2000s, or will they continue to lead, and redefine that (and, or other segments) in the decades to follow?
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      07-07-2019, 11:41 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted99 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nahlem View Post
Ahhh i figured after the latest statements regarding EV development and the critic for not pushing the BMW i segment harder i guess this was expected.

Now we should see CEO who pushes for excellent EV driver cars, considering ICE vehicles are easy these days to make driver orientated with all the experience they got pretty much everyone knows how to do a proper ICE vehicle now lets see them do a proper BMW M i Car with a range of 500-600 km/h and a real proper drivers car. Looking forward for BMW's future now.
I think we see this management failure in the slow roll-out of the next generation of PHEV's. Almost a full year gap between the end of the F-generation of PHEV's and the G-generation. Except for left-overs on dealer lots, it seems there are no PHEV's currently available in the USA. Just now hitting Europe, with US availability postponed to 2020.
To add to that, hybrid technology doesn't have to be limited to boring, purely energy efficient, snooze fest vehicles. As an example look to MB AMG for how hybrid technology can be utilized to create cars that are also exciting to drive.
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