[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Dan B

Here are just a few things we would need to calculate the value.

1. Air temp
2. Surface material
3. Surface temp
4. Tire specs.
5. Tread depth
6. Tire pressure
7. Corner weights
8. Speed of car
9. Rate of deceleration
10. Slip angle

There are a few more but this is a good start.

I am sure auto engineers can tune and adjust to counterbalance the extra weight and front moment of the M340ix(which again is far superior to any 60/40 car), but 330i rwd with 51.2/48.8 and engine slightly behind front axle is naturally more balanced than M340ix.

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

I am sure auto engineers can tune and adjust to counterbalance the extra weight and front moment of the M340ix(which again is far superior to any 60/40 car), but 330i rwd with 51.2/48.8 and engine slightly behind front axle is naturally more balanced than M340ix.

Sorry but.... and?

Why do you keep referencing 60/40? Never came into play.

And once again, 99.9% of all drivers won't be able to take advantage of the performance of any car they drive regardless of balance.

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by Dan B

And once again, 99.9% of all drivers won't be able to take advantage of the performance of any car they drive regardless of balance.

Meaning that the 440i is for the 0.1% of owners who can. I think that's like 3 people.

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

Meaning that the 440i is for the 0.1% of owners who can. I think that's like 3 people.

Ok, I can live with that.

[blue_seather]

Each time you hit the pedal to the ground you're taking advantage of 100% of the performance. Taking advantage of the performance and taking advantage of the driving dynamics the chassis is capable of are two completely different things. People usually rarely do the latter but do plenty of the former.

A 430i is as slow as a small regular city EV. Compared to an i4 M50i, even the M440i is a joke. Tesla Model S Plaid redefined what performance per dollar means. The more horsepower - the better, except if your priority is economy. Get over it already, please.

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by blue_seather

Each time you hit the pedal to the ground you're taking advantage of 100% of the performance. Taking advantage of the performance and taking advantage of the driving dynamics the chassis is capable of are two completely different things. People usually rarely do the latter but do plenty of the former.

A 430i is as slow as a small regular city EV. Compared to an i4 M50i, even the M440i is a joke. Tesla Model S Plaid redefined what performance per dollar means. The more horsepower - the better, except if your priority is economy. Get over it already, please.

I feel like I've traveled back to 2004 when all of this horsepower peacocking pissing contest crap was going on. Those days are over. All these 3's and 4's are blisteringly fast and tight round the corners, that's what 20 years of advancement and refinement gets you. Is the 40i fractionally quicker than the 30i on a test track? Sure. But in the real world does it matter? No, not at all.

Cool trunk badge though. I'll give you that.

[Motorwerke_man]

Originally Posted by blue_seather

A 430i is as slow as a small regular city EV. Compared to an i4 M50i, even the M440i is a joke. Tesla Model S Plaid redefined what performance per dollar means. The more horsepower - the better, except if your priority is economy. Get over it already, please.

There's some hyperbole there, no?

Peugeot e-208: 8.1s 0-60
Mini Cooper SE: 6.6s 0-60
Mazda MX30: 8.7s 0-60
Kia Niro EV: 6.6s 0-60

"Small city EVs" all appear to be considerably slower. You'll need to spend close to or the same money as a 430i in the electric space to get a vehicle as quick or faster. That may change soon, but we're not quite there yet.

On the whole balance thing, yes the 4-cylinder BMW's feel more nimble and turn-in better than the 6-cylinder cars. That's the one and only thing I miss coming from my F30 328i (Lies, I miss my 6MT too but that's never coming back). Although the M340i's capabilities are higher and the suspension is far better sorted, the front end response isn't as sharp as I'd like due to the weight. I'd love to get a 255 square setup on this car to see how it changes things.

[madpistol]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

I feel like I've traveled back to 2004 when all of this horsepower peacocking pissing contest crap was going on. Those days are over. All these 3's and 4's are blisteringly fast and tight round the corners, that's what 20 years of advancement and refinement gets you. Is the 40i fractionally quicker than the 30i on a test track? Sure. But in the real world does it matter? No, not at all.

Cool trunk badge though. I'll give you that.

Careful. The x40i cars are significantly faster, even in normal driving. I drove my Dad’s 430i, and it was a fantastically smooth and easy car to drive. I found the pedal response to be about the same off the line. That can be attributed to the fact that both the 430i and M440i use the exact same transmission.

But, even a slight stab at the throttle allows the B58 to show you what 2 extra cylinders and an extra 130ish horsepower can do. And even then, the numbers lie. The magic of the B58 is the wave of effortless torque you get. That’s what makes the experience elevated compared to the B48 in the 430i. You get both power of the B58, and the luxuriously smooth, torquey power delivery of that turbo straight 6. I’m not saying the B48 is a bad motor, but to say that the B58 is only fractionally quicker than the B48 is really underselling the B58. It’s a 50% performance bump, and the torque comes on much more quickly. It’s a totally different experience.

[blue_seather]

Guys... https://zeperfs.com/en/match9600-11514.htm

0 - 200 km/h, the 430i xDrive is 27.7 seconds, the M440i xDrive is 16.4 seconds. That's almost twice as fast. And that IS real world. I don't know how you guys in the US are driving but here in Europe when you have such a car you regularly hit 200 kmph on the motorway, provided 150 kmph is even a legal speed to begin with.

Even 0 - 100 km/h is 5.7 sec vs 4.2 sec. That's 30% faster and I make use of that even in daily city driving. If you can't feel those 30%, you have a problem.

Please stop trying to justify your purchase by blatantly skewing the facts in your favor. You don't need to defend the 430i 24/7 all year long, no one's out to get you. The M440i is obviously better but there's nothing wrong with settling for a 430i, hell, even a 420i.

I personally wouldn't even settle for an M440i if I could afford an M3/M4 or an i4 M50i (it's as expensive as an M3 where I live, for some reason).

And I'm coming yet again to the other important factor - before the M440i, I drove a car that was 272 hp, had a 5.1 sec 0 - 100 km/h time and a 21 sec 0 - 200 km/h time, while offering the interior space of a BMW 7 Series for a lot cheaper than a 430i. Yet, when I was shopping now for the M440i, there was nothing out there to even come close to touching it in terms of price. M440i is a far better value compared to the 430i in terms of both of their respective competition.

[toddwalton]

Originally Posted by madpistol

Careful. The x40i cars are significantly faster, even in normal driving. I drove my Dad’s 430i, and it was a fantastically smooth and easy car to drive. I found the pedal response to be about the same off the line. That can be attributed to the fact that both the 430i and M440i use the exact same transmission.

But, even a slight stab at the throttle allows the B58 to show you what 2 extra cylinders and an extra 130ish horsepower can do. And even then, the numbers lie. The magic of the B58 is the wave of effortless torque you get. That’s what makes the experience elevated compared to the B48 in the 430i. You get both power of the B58, and the luxuriously smooth, torquey power delivery of that turbo straight 6. I’m not saying the B48 is a bad motor, but to say that the B58 is only fractionally quicker than the B48 is really underselling the B58. It’s a 50% performance bump, and the torque comes on much more quickly. It’s a totally different experience.

I'm not disputing the statistics. I'm pointing out real world conditions.

Hey, if you live in Germany and are on the autobahn, the 40i is the right car, you can surely take advantage of the horses at 180km/h. Same if you live in a city and take your car out to the local racetrack. 225mph. Vroom.

But if you're like 99% of us, living in the suburbs, commuting daily in traffic, the 40i gets you to work no faster and not any more fun either. Just so much you can do bumper to bumper doing 50 in a 65 or between stop signs at 20.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by blue_seather

Please stop trying to justify your purchase by blatantly skewing the facts in your favor. You don't need to defend the 430i 24/7 all year long, no one's out to get you. The M440i is obviously better but there's nothing wrong with settling for a 430i, hell, even a 420i.

It does feel like both 30i and 40i owners are trying to justify their purchases.

As one of those 30i owners, I would say the 30i is a brilliant product from BMW.

For those who need and want extra straight line power, BMW offers the 40i.

It would also be fair to say that 99.9% of the drivers at 99.9% of the time would be perfectly happy with the neutral balanced feel of the 30i that shares the same excellent G2* chassis with 40i.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Dan B

Why do you keep referencing 60/40? Never came into play.

Well BMW does have 60/40 car, that surely is far worse than 53.3/46.7.

[blue_seather]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

It does feel like both 30i and 40i owners are trying to justify their purchases.

No, I personally don't. I literally said I can't afford an M3 and settled for an M440i.

The 272 hp car I'm coming from that I think is better value than the 430i cost me $38k. It had some options even the M3 can't be specced into.

A full spec 430i GC would cost me $53k. Compared to my previous car - totally not worth it, in my opinion. The 430i is initially cheaper but it has fewer options by default. The moment you spec it up, it comes dangerously close to an M440i, so you're paying premium just for the badge, with a lot better 4 cylinder alternatives out there for less money.

My full spec M440i GC cost me $58k and brings a lot more value than the 430i. It literally has no competition in this price bracket.

Both an M3 and an i4 M40i in a similar spec to my M440i would cost me $79k, so they're way over budget.

Once you see those prices, a 430i makes zero sense. And the 430i feels noticeably slower than my older car, yet the M440i feels noticeably quicker than it. Go figure.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by toddwalton

I'm not disputing the statistics. I'm pointing out real world conditions.

Hey, if you live in Germany and are on the autobahn, the 40i is the right car, you can surely take advantage of the horses at 180km/h. Same if you live in a city and take your car out to the local racetrack. 225mph. Vroom.

But if you're like 99% of us, living in the suburbs, commuting daily in traffic, the 40i gets you to work no faster and not any more fun either. Just so much you can do bumper to bumper doing 50 in a 65 or between stop signs at 20.

Yes, if I do live in locales that allow autobahn speeds, I will choose M340i/M3 and make use of them daily.

When I pay for the performance, I want to use it all the time. It surely sucks to let a precision tool like M340i to sit idle in traffic.

[wdc330i]

Originally Posted by blue_seather

No, I personally don't. I literally said I can't afford an M3 and settled for an M440i.

The 272 hp car I'm coming from that I think is better value than the 430i cost me $38k. It had some options even the M3 can't be specced into.

A full spec 430i GC would cost me $53k. Compared to my previous car - totally not worth it, in my opinion. The 430i is initially cheaper but it has fewer options by default. The moment you spec it up, it comes dangerously close to an M440i, so you're paying premium just for the badge, with a lot better 4 cylinder alternatives out there for less money.

My full spec M440i GC cost me $58k and brings a lot more value than the 430i. It literally has no competition in this price bracket.

Both an M3 and an i4 M40i in a similar spec to my M440i would cost me $79k, so they're way over budget.

Once you see those prices, a 430i makes zero sense. And the 430i feels noticeably slower than my older car, yet the M440i feels noticeably quicker than it. Go figure.

How did your “full spec” 440 xDrive GC cost only $58k? That car is about $70k+ here.

[bavarianride]

Yes I understand your points of view, the value propositions do matter and buyers need to evaluate those based on prevailing local market conditions.

E.g. when I bought my G20 330i, the local Accord touring went for $2k above the 330i(US-spec base with minimal options). It was a no brainer go with the G20 330i for $37k.

At that time a M340ix base(with more standard options than 330i base) also was around $46k, so I picked the 330i to hit the pricing sweet spot.

It is not likely BMW didn't try to sell the 330i with high premiums, it is just that the local markets forced BMW to dynamic adjust its prices to compete with others.

Originally Posted by blue_seather

No, I personally don't. I literally said I can't afford an M3 and settled for an M440i.

The 272 hp car I'm coming from that I think is better value than the 430i cost me $38k. It had some options even the M3 can't be specced into.

A full spec 430i GC would cost me $53k. Compared to my previous car - totally not worth it, in my opinion. The 430i is initially cheaper but it has fewer options by default. The moment you spec it up, it comes dangerously close to an M440i, so you're paying premium just for the badge, with a lot better 4 cylinder alternatives out there for less money.

My full spec M440i GC cost me $58k and brings a lot more value than the 430i. It literally has no competition in this price bracket.

Both an M3 and an i4 M40i in a similar spec to my M440i would cost me $79k, so they're way over budget.

Once you see those prices, a 430i makes zero sense. And the 430i feels noticeably slower than my older car, yet the M440i feels noticeably quicker than it. Go figure.

[wdc330i]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Yes I understand your points of view, the value propositions do matter and buyers need to evaluate those based on prevailing local market conditions.

E.g. when I bought my G20 330i, the local Accord touring went for $2k above the 330i(US-spec base with minimal options). It was a no brainer go with the G20 330i for $37k.

At that time a M340ix base(with more standard options than 330i base) also was around $46k, so I picked the 330i to hit the pricing sweet spot.

It is not likely BMW didn't try to sell the 330i with high premiums, it is just that the local markets forced BMW to dynamic adjust its prices to compete with others.

BMW has always done this decently well: Have a base model that an enthusiast could spec with just performance options. (You used to have to spend extra to get an armrest in a 325i.) But, part of that enthusiast spec was the option to purchase a manual transmission at no cost (automatics cost more).

In that regard, they have lost their way with no manuals available except for an M3. But, maybe with turbo engines, it’s less of a big deal.

Imagine, though, the fun E46 325i with stick, sport suspension and nothing else. That car would have cost, what, $25k or so. Admittedly year 2000 dollars…

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by Motorwerke_man

There's some hyperbole there, no?

Peugeot e-208: 8.1s 0-60
Mini Cooper SE: 6.6s 0-60
Mazda MX30: 8.7s 0-60
Kia Niro EV: 6.6s 0-60

"Small city EVs" all appear to be considerably slower. You'll need to spend close to or the same money as a 430i in the electric space to get a vehicle as quick or faster. That may change soon, but we're not quite there yet.

On the whole balance thing, yes the 4-cylinder BMW's feel more nimble and turn-in better than the 6-cylinder cars. That's the one and only thing I miss coming from my F30 328i (Lies, I miss my 6MT too but that's never coming back). Although the M340i's capabilities are higher and the suspension is far better sorted, the front end response isn't as sharp as I'd like due to the weight. I'd love to get a 255 square setup on this car to see how it changes things.

I run 255 square, it’s a huge step up from 225 fronts. How quickly a car turns in is as much a function of alignment. The car has a good amount of toe in on the front, dial that back and the car will be very eager to turn in. With 255 fronts the car is very direct, I would start with that.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by wdc330i

BMW has always done this decently well: Have a base model that an enthusiast could spec with just performance options. (You used to have to spend extra to get an armrest in a 325i.) But, part of that enthusiast spec was the option to purchase a manual transmission at no cost (automatics cost more).

In that regard, they have lost their way with no manuals available except for an M3. But, maybe with turbo engines, it’s less of a big deal.

Imagine, though, the fun E46 325i with stick, sport suspension and nothing else. That car would have cost, what, $25k or so. Admittedly year 2000 dollars…

A friend got his 2013 F30 320i base + 6MT + 704(without cosmetic M body trims) for, wait for it, $29k(before tax + fees), in the Bay Area.

He also swapped in the MSSK kit for $900 parts + $500 labor, that setup solved the bouncy rear of the F30, and it was/still is one fun ride.

Yes I ordered my E39 530i MT mainly to save the $1.5k AT price tag. That E39, and the next F30 328i, and the current G20 330i, are all around 3500lb, almost 50/50.

I really appreciate BMW keeps producing products with neutral balanced stance for the low-key enthusiasts like me.

[LostInSpace]

B58 all the way. I'm sure the 330 feels more nimble, and I don't care.

[metrixBMW]

obviously I'm biased but go for the M440

[blue_seather]

Originally Posted by wdc330i

How did your “full spec” 440 xDrive GC cost only $58k? That car is about $70k+ here.

All the BMW prices are with a 12% discount they gave me. Also, here in Europe we have to pay a mandatory VAT, ranging from 19% to 27% (20% in my case). So the MSRP for the M440i is $79k in reality, VAT included. Still, it's just a scratch more expensive than a similarly specced 430i and miles cheaper than an M3.