[Alfisti]

Funny this came up as a friend of mine is turning 60 and wants a "me" car. He settled on a Blackwing CT5, 2022 MY with low miles for 127K CDN plus taxes so a solid $140K car. He has a thing for big powerful sedans but over the course of an hour I talked him out of it. Well i shouldn't say that as I kept repeating that he is of an age and stage in life where he needs to do what his heart says and money be damned.

But I said, imho, the money is absolutely insane. Now for this guy it would be a summer ride only, kids leaving the nest etc and i said chief, why are you dropping 140 beans on a car that will likely depreciate hard when you could get something really interesting for near half that or even go 911. The car I mentioned was an F-Type, which is basically the same ethos as a blackwing in a much sexier body, that's set him back about 90K all in. Or, he could go towards 991.1 territory.

He wants the Caddy but agrees the price is insane so now he is on hold. I don't buy that these cars will hold value, the wagon did because wagon but 140K now will be 90K in a few years imho.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

How about the IS500? I'm at the point where is rather have something reasonably chuckable than a bloated floaty manual land barge.

Second the comments about the QV, though I'd think about garage time vs driving time, no fun owning a car while it's in the shop.

Nothing about a Blackwing is close to floaty. The BW's steering, handling, shifter, and magneride suspension are all class leading.

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by RM7

I don't think this is really the concern you are making it out to be here. Sure, it won't be nimble like a miata or even 911...but, the GM steering is good. Real good. Like the only mainstream cars rivaling Porsche electric steering and that somehow doesn't suffer from the dead-spots and ridiculous stuff BMW designed into theirs. Just look at the new Darkhorse vs. the old 1LE, Ford still hasn't figured it out either. Typically the heavier cars will feel better at speed anyway, maybe not carve the tightest arc, but you won't likely be in a situation where you are trying to tear the car back and forth at the limits of it's grip, the "fun" you have with it will likely be well within it's grip capability. GM also has dynamics dialed. If you watched/read the blackwing reviews...this seems to be unanimous. If you are going to go for a big car, I don't think it'll disappoint. I think interior differences are more about long-term bias than real quantifiable differences. There are differences...but they are much more "in the noise" these days. My 2SS interior is nicer than a friends Cayman I sat it. Sure, it's "just" a Cayman...but there's also not this giant chasm that people make there out to be between German cars and others. People kind of flip out when I drive them in my "Kia", as in "OMG, I never knew Kia made a car like this!?"...but it's like a carbon-copy of my BMW 4 series from a couple years ago. Point is the giant chasm/gap just doesn't exist anymore. There are people though that still see what they want to see, no matter what is in front of them.

Agreed. I've been with the minority over the past few generations of BMW's in that BMW has lost the plot, and GM is quietly eating their lunch. The E90 has been such a sweetheart from a driver's perspective ... it's just slow nowadays. The numb steering on the F80/F10/G80/F90 is what it is unfortunately ... I think I read a quote from a BMW exec that stated that this is what their customers wanted according to their surveys. On the interior parts ... GM has come a long ways. (I owned a C5 Z06, and that was the definition of parts bin interior complete with Tonka Toy sized buttons.) But as an exercise, build up a BW on their website and tell me that the interior styling and the premium option rubber floormats don't rub you the wrong way. Like I said, it's not a deal breaker, but for $100K+ ... a tad irritating. The 2025 updates are apparently addressing this, so maybe I just build up the E90 and wait.

I've watched all the reviews too, and I think it's a no-brainer. I'm just selfishly looking for the first-hand experience confirmation that this is a no-brainer. Thx.

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

i think you need an 812 superfast

LOL ... see comment about wife.

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

no f8x?

I feel like I've watched every YT vid out there on F80/G80 tuned cars, and they all sound like butt. I've driven an F80 several times ... couple times at COTA. Fast car, kinda soulless. If they could make an S55/S58 sound like a 2JZ, I'd be on board. For whatever reason, BMW/the aftermarket just can't/don't.

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

If the E90 M3 replacement must be a V8 manual, I can’t think of any other new cars besides the Blackwing. I had an E90 M3 manual for 10 years and DIY’ed most of the maintenance you mention (rod bearings, valve covers) and some upgrades like subframe bushings, springs, shocks, exhaust, intake, swaybars, brake lines, front BBK, etc.). Bought a flywheel and clutch but sold the car before I needed to install them.

I wanted a newer, more comfortable and larger, faster, AWD car and bought an F90 M5. I don’t track it, but am aware of a very small number of owners who do. No manual for the F90 M5, but the F10 M5 had the option if you want to split the difference between new and 15 years old.

Nice. How does the F90 compare to your upgraded E90 in terms of "fun factor" driving? If you could have your E90 with a SC kit, would you consider swapping back into it?

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

Originally Posted by BimmerDKT

LOL ... see comment about wife.



I feel like I've watched every YT vid out there on F80/G80 tuned cars, and they all sound like butt. I've driven an F80 several times ... couple times at COTA. Fast car, kinda soulless. If they could make an S55/S58 sound like a 2JZ, I'd be on board. For whatever reason, BMW/the aftermarket just can't/don't.

as a 7 year f8x owner, and you coming from an s65. the s55 sounds like dogshit and I am running the top exhaust set-up remus+aa single mid. all exhaust mods sound pretty worse.

I've been thinking of getting a gran turismo MC as a "beater" just for sounds, but auto only

Caddy is where its at for you. maybe a used shebly with the flat plane

[R N M]

^
I would look at Shelby GT350, Mach 1 or new Dark Horse. All have the excellent Tremec manual. Much cheaper that Caddy BW.

Not much options new if you want V8 with a manual transmission.

[x622]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well said.

Ever since Cadillac started making sports sedans and stomping on BMW's head, the car enthusiast retort has been "yeah, but the interior sucks". Then when you actually drive a Cadillac you realize it is a better experience than what BMW offers.

Firmly disagree. I would own a CT5V if it was AWD. Big high horsepower RWD cars are only so fun before you just are sliding the damn thing around ALL the time trying to do anything.

I will say the M5 is boring as can be unless it's the CS trim. Wish I never got rid of mine

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by BimmerDKT

Nice. How does the F90 compare to your upgraded E90 in terms of "fun factor" driving? If you could have your E90 with a SC kit, would you consider swapping back into it?

I tuned the E90 M3 and also had a water/meth kit on it that increased ignition timing when the meth was flowing. I thought about Schrick cams, a stroker motor or a supercharger. Very mixed reviews on strokers in terms of durability, particularly for track use. The positive displacement supercharger looked interesting but would have changed the character of the car and one mercurial guy controls the tuning. A centrifugal was likely the way I would have gone if I kept the car. But that can reduce reliability and you still have to drive the car hard to access the power — centrifugal adds roughly the square root of peak boost at half peak rpm and makes peak boost only at peak rpm. A 9 psi kit makes 9 psi at 8400 rpm and 3 psi at most at 4200 rpm. I had a centrifugal on my E36 M3 but changed to a turbo after a few years and like that more. I kept the turbo E36 M3 and sold the modded E90 M3.

I also wanted AWD to put the power down more of the time. I had 18x9.5/10.5 wheels on the E90 M3 and ran both 285/35/18 and 295/30/18 rear tires (295/30 makes the 3.85 like a 4.10) but still had traction issues with PSS street tires. With more power from a supercharger, traction would be worse. If I lived in a warm dry area, I could have used stickier rubber but I am in the Northeast. I had snow wheels as well for the winter.

I did think about keeping the E90 M3 and adding a 991.2 911 Turbo. In hindsight, I am happy with my choice. I would not have driven the 911 as much since it is not as practical. Ideally, I would have the F90 M5 or a Cayenne Turbo plus a 991.2 or 992 911 Turbo but would rather not spend that much money send my wife has a 21 Cayenne S that I can use.

Bottom line, I thought about it, but 10 years with the E90 M3 was good enough. It does have personality that the F90 M5 does not have and it sounded better. But the F90 M5 is so much more comfortable, more practical and higher performing that I have no regrets.

We are fortunate to have issues like this to resolve. For you, I know you want a RWD V8 manual, but you already have one you like and seem like you would be content with it if you put a little money in it. Maybe keep it and buy a later model 911 with manual?

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I tuned the E90 M3 and also had a water/meth kit on it that increased ignition timing when the meth was flowing. I thought about Schrick cams, a stroker motor or a supercharger. Very mixed reviews on strokers in terms of durability, particularly for track use. The positive displacement supercharger looked interesting but would have changed the character of the car and one mercurial guy controls the tuning. A centrifugal was likely the way I would have gone if I kept the car. But that can reduce reliability and you still have to drive the car hard to access the power — centrifugal adds roughly the square root of peak boost at half peak rpm and makes peak boost only at peak rpm. A 9 psi kit makes 9 psi at 8400 rpm and 3 psi at most at 4200 rpm. I had a centrifugal on my E36 M3 but changed to a turbo after a few years and like that more. I kept the turbo E36 M3 and sold the modded E90 M3.

I also wanted AWD to put the power down more of the time. I had 18x9.5/10.5 wheels on the E90 M3 and ran both 285/35/18 and 295/30/18 rear tires (295/30 makes the 3.85 like a 4.10) but still had traction issues with PSS street tires. With more power from a supercharger, traction would be worse. If I lived in a warm dry area, I could have used stickier rubber but I am in the Northeast. I had snow wheels as well for the winter.

Gotcha. I have CAI, pulleys, test pipes, Magnaflow catback, and the Epic Motorsports Stage 2 tune. I think the Harrop SC is probably the most logical upgrade for just fun factor. Agree that the centrifugal makes no sense, and while a stroker is tempting ... I should just buy the BW if I'm going to consider going that far. I'll give a look at the F10 M5's per your recommendation. Might be the best compromise.

FYI, the newer summer tires are amazing. Falkens RT660's are pretty darn close to an R-compound tire. Way more grip than a PS4S, and they take a really impressive amount of abuse to heat cycle off. Running 19's with 265 rears, and I have to be extremely aggressive (short of a clutch kick) to get a drift initiated.

[pbonsalb]

I ran the Epic Race tune as well in the E90 M3. Had Euro MDM coded for a little more playfulness without turning off the TC.

I don’t think the F10 M5 has anything on the BW. The BW is newer, rides better, handles better and is probably faster. The only advantage of the F10 M5 is that you can find them for as low as about $35k. The F90 M5 is more the competitor to the BW and is faster, in part due to the AWD that puts the power down.

I like being able to use big power like I can in the F90 M5 (and mine is modded). I have a 700 rwhp turbo E36 M3 and while it is fun, it often cannot put the power down even on the 275/40/17 Toyo RA1.

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I ran the Epic Race tune as well in the E90 M3. Had Euro MDM coded for a little more playfulness without turning off the TC.

I don’t think the F10 M5 has anything on the BW. The BW is newer, rides better, handles better and is probably faster. The only advantage of the F10 M5 is that you can find them for as low as about $35k. The F90 M5 is more the competitor to the BW and is faster, in part due to the AWD that puts the power down.

I like being able to use big power like I can in the F90 M5 (and mine is modded). I have a 700 rwhp turbo E36 M3 and while it is fun, it often cannot put the power down even on the 275/40/17 Toyo RA1.

In case you haven't already seen it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7YqdGt19tw

F10 M5 classifieds quick check ~$45k for a reasonable mileage manual version. You're right ... BW is better everywhere and comes with a warranty.

FWIW, Toyo RA1's are ooooooooollllddddd tires. I used to run those on my CMC racecar, and they were kinda old back then. Falken RT660, Bridgestone RE-71RS, Goodyear Supercar 3R are all about as close as you can get to a Hoosier with tread. Amazing stuff these days, if you can get them in your sizes.

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by R N M

^
I would look at Shelby GT350, Mach 1 or new Dark Horse. All have the excellent Tremec manual. Much cheaper that Caddy BW.

Not much options new if you want V8 with a manual transmission.

Love the Voodoo motor ... but the recent history on them is a tad scary. I need a sedan too. If I could have the toy car, I probably would have a GT350R or an SS 1LE. Only 11 more years until they're all out.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by BimmerDKT

In case you haven't already seen it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7YqdGt19tw

F10 M5 classifieds quick check ~$45k for a reasonable mileage manual version. You're right ... BW is better everywhere and comes with a warranty.

FWIW, Toyo RA1's are ooooooooollllddddd tires. I used to run those on my CMC racecar, and they were kinda old back then. Falken RT660, Bridgestone RE-71RS, Goodyear Supercar 3R are all about as close as you can get to a Hoosier with tread. Amazing stuff these days, if you can get them in your sizes.

I thought RA1 were the same compound as R888R but more of a rain tread. They are 100 treadwear. The RT660 and RE71RS are 200 treadwear tires — more of a street tire that is OK for track days whereas the RA1 is not recommended for the street. I drive in rain sometimes.

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I thought RA1 were the same compound as R888R but more of a rain tread. They are 100 treadwear. The RT660 and RE71RS are 200 treadwear tires — more of a street tire that is OK for track days whereas the RA1 is not recommended for the street. I drive in rain sometimes.

TW ratings are complete BS these days. RA1's wear like rocks (as you're already aware). Toyo << 200TW Extreme tires << Hoosier A7/R7 << slicks. I would literally buy a RT660/RE71-RS/SC-3R over any lower R-compound tire for dual usage. All three have the Michelin-style center water-siping grooves, and are as good (or nearly as good) as a PS4S in wet conditions. You're not going to get 15K miles out them, but you already knew that.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by stein_325i

The CT5-V BW has a chance to hold its value better since it is quite literally the only Manual V8 Sport Sedan on the market.

They come in auto too...

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by x622

Firmly disagree. I would own a CT5V if it was AWD. Big high horsepower RWD cars are only so fun before you just are sliding the damn thing around ALL the time trying to do anything.

I will say the M5 is boring as can be unless it's the CS trim. Wish I never got rid of mine

Are you drifting for a living? lol

I daily my Hellcat & don't slide all over. Stay off the gas, big shot?

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by R N M

^
I would look at Shelby GT350, Mach 1 or new Dark Horse. All have the excellent Tremec manual. Much cheaper that Caddy BW.

Not much options new if you want V8 with a manual transmission.

Apples to oranges

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

Are you drifting for a living? lol

I daily my Hellcat & don't slide all over. Stay off the gas, big shot?

You two drive differently. I don’t want to stay off the gas to have traction. I bought a fast car to go fast when I want. AWD is the way to go unless you live in a warm dry area and use sticky rubber or, if you live in an area with 4 seasons, the car is just a warm dry weather toy.

[Alfisti]

I'll never get my head around AWD sporty cars, i loathe the feeling of the car pulling through corners. There are guys in my 997 chat that swear up and down it's not a sports car if it's a PDK but at least I can change gears, great you have a manual and always stuck with AWD. I don't get it.

[BimmerDKT]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

Are you drifting for a living? lol

I daily my Hellcat & don't slide all over. Stay off the gas, big shot?

Sliding is a way of life. Once you get over the fear of a little curb rash, it's the only way to fly.

This is also why AWD sleds are not on my watch list. AWD tends to push hard on corner entry waiting for the front diff to catch up. They even talk about how BMW tries to manage this in the M5 CS in the Hagerty vid that I linked above. Cool party trick, but robs the fun out of getting the rear end to come around under control.

Welp ... clutch finally gave up this morning. I'm off ordering parts.

[pbonsalb]

If you have no problem putting down 600 rwhp with RWD then you don’t need AWD. If you are tired of not putting power to the ground as often as you would like, consider it. If you want a slower car with worse mpg but need done thing to do while you are driving and paddles won’t suffice, stick with a manual trans.

You can turn off traction control, turn off AWD and have only RWD, and paddle shift an F90 M5 if you want.