[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

I think the transmission option is irrelevant to this discussion. That would be saying I can't compare a 6MT Corvette to an Auto Corvette (Corvettes have been my other performance vehicles, & similar comparisons).
Minus the 0.1 or 0.2 0-60 difference, they're the same.

But if we throw the base M3 out of the discussion are you saying it's not worth the $18k over an M340i? If that's the case, then one would need to spend even more ($24-26k) to get a noticeable performance increase?

This isn't unique to BMW, the new Z06 has a base price $45k more than the Stingray for 170 more hp, but very marginal performance increases. The same argument is waged on those forums of "on the track is where it'll really shine & blow away the base...".

IMO the transmission difference is absolutely relevant when comparing objective performance metrics as you are. You can do the comparison all you want, just know that there's a big fat asterisk regarding the difference in transmission, since, especially in a straight line, 9 times out of 10 a fast shifting ZF 8spd will demolish a human shifting their own gears. So if you're trying to get an apples to apples comparison of the difference between an m340i and an M3, you try and limit the variables as much as you can.

The manual transmission is offered as a way to appease the subjective "feel" and "driver engagement" of the car some enthusiasts are after - not for performance figures. If anything it's a handicap when comparing metrics.

So in regards to if a base M3 is worth it or not as an upgrade over the m340i comes down to which objective and/or subjective measure you value most and in which environment. I found the base M3 to be a worthy upgrade over my m340i for the following reasons (and thus my G80 6MT is hopefully on schedule to be delivered by mid-February to replace my 2020 m340i xdrive):

Subjective reasons:
- The manual transmission offers more driver engagement
- I like the aggressive looks better (controversial grill and all)
- It feels much more special to drive - where the m340i is an incredible and very capable car, the G80 downright felt supercar-like.
- Steering feel is better
- Probably my #1 reason - the M3 has, at least for the last 15 years, been a bucket list car for me. Now that I have the opportunity to own one, it's a dream come true.

Objective reasons (some objective reasons translate into subjective feelings):
- The sophisticated suspension and wide tires offer tremendous handling and grip which the m340i can't even come close to - and yes this is absolutely apparent on spirited street driving. I can pinpoint exact moments in my commute where my m340i understeers and I know the M3 will feel like it's on rails. And this is besides the cruises my friends and I go on multiple times a year where we have numerous twisty roads and the M3 will truly shine.
- I appreciate the S58's higher redline and more natural feeling torque curve - it more closely resembles the intoxicating feeling of a Naturally Aspirated motor as opposed to the B58's more turbo-like feeling due to lower power-band
- The interior is more upscale with options like full merino leather (a major improvement over the vernasca in the m340i) and carbon fiber trim

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

But if we throw the base M3 out of the discussion are you saying it's not worth the $18k over an M340i? If that's the case, then one would need to spend even more ($24-26k) to get a noticeable performance increase?

This isn't unique to BMW, the new Z06 has a base price $45k more than the Stingray for 170 more hp, but very marginal performance increases. The same argument is waged on those forums of "on the track is where it'll really shine & blow away the base...".

If you want the best driving dynamics BMW can offer, then the M-car is the model to have, cost included. Whether we put the additional cost as 'value' that's our decision. However we look at it, we do know the extra few percent of M-car 'performance' costs real money.

I personally think the track references are a bit of a 'red herring' in the discussion. Many M-cars bought or leased in the UK, never see a track, and that includes the Competition models. They will be used as road cars and most of their potential not really exploited. Hence why there's an appeal for the M Performance models, can make so much more sense in typical driving. I'm minded the US market may be a little different, as there is more reference to daily drivers and track cars.

[Panscan340]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

I think the transmission option is irrelevant to this discussion. That would be saying I can't compare a 6MT Corvette to an Auto Corvette (Corvettes have been my other performance vehicles, & similar comparisons).
Minus the 0.1 or 0.2 0-60 difference, they're the same.

But if we throw the base M3 out of the discussion are you saying it's not worth the $18k over an M340i? If that's the case, then one would need to spend even more ($24-26k) to get a noticeable performance increase?

This isn't unique to BMW, the new Z06 has a base price $45k more than the Stingray for 170 more hp, but very marginal performance increases. The same argument is waged on those forums of "on the track is where it'll really shine & blow away the base...".

It’s a total diff motor on the z06. You’re buying one of the last modern high revving naturally aspirated motors possibly ever. The scream of it.

A lot of stuff cannot be reduced down to 0-60 times or laps around a track. You could put 50k into an old corvette and come up with something that will wreck a gt3 rs around a track. That doesn’t mean it’s more desirable. And yes at some point of performance all of these cars get stupid from a performance stand point where you are paying more money for performance you can’t use except on tracks. Yet Porsche sells every rs car immeadiately and they all command heavy mark ups, just like the new z06.

Is a 330 that much better than a Honda Civic? I would say it may be worse value but it’s a better car. As you get into higher and higher end luxury stuff the value goes to the floor, doesn’t mean people don’t want it. People spend tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars on sets of speakers which are marginally better than ones which cost 1/10th the cost.

I agree the 340 is a great value and represents lots of usable power and performance. I think the m3 base is probably a bit worse value and only really made for people who are obsessed with a manual transmission. If I was gonna buy an m3 I would get a comp x drive for the much better performance for a few more thousand.

[NYC1993]

This is my feeling, and I have driven the new 330, 340 and M3 back to back.

The biggest difference, by far, is the steering. The steering on the 330 and 340 are downright numb and simply need adjustment after adjustment to hold a straight line.

I personally think the steering on the 330 and 340 is about as bad as it gets - regardless of settings. Both are twitchy, needing correction to stay straight, a bad dead spot on center; somehow comfort feels a bit better than sport. Otherwise, basically, really good cars.

I have read the forums and the professional reviews complaining about the steering in the 330 and 340. I definitely agree with that based upon my own experience. still, there are some who say it is not that bad. to each his own.

The M3 positively drives like it is on rails. It makes you feel 100% in perfect control. The steering is so connected and tight, no adjustments required, a perfectly solid steering that reacts to the smallest steering move with excellent feedback. It may not be as good as Porsche or Audi RS cars or possibly Mercedes AMG, but it is real close - if maybe just as good.

[Panscan340]

Originally Posted by NYC1993

This is my feeling, and I have driven the new 330, 340 and M3 back to back.

The biggest difference, by far, is the steering. The steering on the 330 and 340 are downright numb and simply need adjustment after adjustment to hold a straight line.

I personally think the steering on the 330 and 340 is about as bad as it gets - regardless of settings. Both are twitchy, needing correction to stay straight, a bad dead spot on center; somehow comfort feels a bit better than sport. Otherwise, basically, really good cars.

I have read the forums and the professional reviews complaining about the steering in the 330 and 340. I definitely agree with that based upon my own experience. still, there are some who say it is not that bad. to each his own.

The M3 positively drives like it is on rails. It makes you feel 100% in perfect control. The steering is so connected and tight, no adjustments required, a perfectly solid steering that reacts to the smallest steering move with excellent feedback. It may not be as good as Porsche or Audi RS cars or possibly Mercedes AMG, but it is real close - if maybe just as good.

M3 doesn’t have that much more grip. Skid pad numbers aren’t that much better. Audi RS cars notoriously have pretty horrendous steering feel with vague front ends

[NYC1993]

I was not at all talking about grip. I was talking about steering feel. I have the personal opinion that the M340 is bad, twitchy, often needs a minor correction to stay straight, and lacks driver engagement. I decided against an M3 because it was too much money and also a bit too rough riding in NYC, but no doubt, the steering in that car is magnificent.

I see from your listing that you too have a 340. What do you think of the steering, and have you also driven the M3??

I had an Audi RS5 before my 340, and found that steering to be just about equally spectacular to the M3.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by NYC1993

I was not at all talking about grip. I was talking about steering feel. I have the personal opinion that the M340 is bad, twitchy, often needs a minor correction to stay straight, and lacks driver engagement. I decided against an M3 because it was too much money and also a bit too rough riding in NYC, but no doubt, the steering in that car is magnificent.

I see from your listing that you too have a 340. What do you think of the steering, and have you also driven the M3??

I had an Audi RS5 before my 340, and found that steering to be just about equally spectacular to the M3.

Steering is more subjective than people believe, and people seem to forget this. I think it is a by-product of people listening to reviewers rather than independent thought.

I find the M340i steering perfectly acceptable after 100 miles of driving so far. For reference, I am coming from a tight, hydraulic steering, E90.

If I was to listen to this forum, I should be crying for my E90 steering back. But yet, I am not. I think it is different sure, but bad, nah. I might actually prefer the M340i steering (though with only 100 miles, I think it is too soon to make a definitive response).

[SLGrassoPA]

How a topic can so far digress from the original subject! Anyway, some owners have the steering problem. Others say they don't.

But what is undeniable is that every major auto publication / review has found the need for constant micro corrections at highway speeds in the 3 series.

I am not talking about numbness (which we know is the way BMW steering has gone). I am not talking about alignments, pressure, balancing, tires, etc.. I am talking about the need for constant micro corrections to the left and to the right at highway speeds to keep the car going straight. After a while, it's exhausting.

This is all my humble opinion and I believe many have just learned to live with the steering issue in the 330 and 340.

For those that think they don't have the problem, go to your local showroom and drive a 2 series or a 5 series and you'll see the immediate difference. It's night and day. They - unlike the 3 series - hold a straight line at any speed, including over 40MPH. They - unlike the 3 series - have a much tighter on center feel and react much better to inputs. No vagueness, no numbness, and most important -- no need for repeated and what feels like never-ending corrections.

Better yet, drive an MB or Audi - or probably most any brand - and you will see a drastic difference in steering feel. The BMW 3 series steering - my opinion - is like a big Chevy, but with the need for constant corrections at highway speed.

For me. I was able to live with the vagueness, the numbness, the lack of feedback, but the need for constant micro corrections at highway speeds is exhausting!!!

BMW NA knows about the issue. Ask any salesperson that you know well about the complaints with the 3 series steering.

********The reviewer here starting around 22:30 nails it - if anyone here has the issue - watch this video now.*********

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1774603

Similarly - the EDMUNDS editor and senior testing manager says:

"The steering in this X3 leaves me with mixed feelings. I really enjoy driving around town thanks to its small dimensions, tight turning radius and overall maneuverability. On the highway it's a different story. The steering wheel is numb off-center. So after a short time on a straight road, with the steering wheel pointed dead-ahead, the car drifts slightly. It requires constant, small adjustments to keep the car in the middle of the lane. It happened often enough that I switched from Comfort to Sport mode, thinking the heavier steering setting might help. No such luck." — Mike Schmidt, senior manager, vehicle testing operations...

From the same review:

"Similar to the base X3, the M40i's steering sometimes succumbs to a heavy-yet-lifeless feel, giving the SUV a wandering sensation that's especially evident while cruising on a highway."

https://www.edmunds.com/bmw/x3/2022/...erm-road-test/

[Panscan340]

Sounds like bad drivers or people not paying attention. I don’t understand. If the front end is properly aligned and the road is flat, barring something being wrong with the car, you should not need to touch the steering wheel to keep the car straight.

I have a 2023 340 and yes I can literally let go of the wheel and it will stay dead straight in the lane. Steering feel is def subjective of course. But I don’t understand claiming the car can’t drive straight. It also seems discordant if you’re saying it has loose steering feel but needs constant adjustments? That makes no sense. I could see a car with really tight direct connection to the wheels needing more adjustments bc microscopic changes in steering wheel position cause a change in where the front tires are pointed.

[Panscan340]

Originally Posted by SLGrassoPA

How a topic can so far digress from the original subject! Anyway, some owners have the steering problem. Others say they don't.

But what is undeniable is that every major auto publication / review has found the need for constant micro corrections at highway speeds in the 3 series.

I am not talking about numbness (which we know is the way BMW steering has gone). I am not talking about alignments, pressure, balancing, tires, etc.. I am talking about the need for constant micro corrections to the left and to the right at highway speeds to keep the car going straight. After a while, it's exhausting.

This is all my humble opinion and I believe many have just learned to live with the steering issue in the 330 and 340.

For those that think they don't have the problem, go to your local showroom and drive a 2 series or a 5 series and you'll see the immediate difference. It's night and day. They - unlike the 3 series - hold a straight line at any speed, including over 40MPH. They - unlike the 3 series - have a much tighter on center feel and react much better to inputs. No vagueness, no numbness, and most important — no need for repeated and what feels like never-ending corrections.

Better yet, drive an MB or Audi - or probably most any brand - and you will see a drastic difference in steering feel. The BMW 3 series steering - my opinion - is like a big Chevy, but with the need for constant corrections at highway speed.

For me. I was able to live with the vagueness, the numbness, the lack of feedback, but the need for constant micro corrections at highway speeds is [...]

You spend a ton of time complaining about the 3 series for someone who spends a lot of time on a 3 series forum. Like if you think the car is junk, the audio is junk then just don’t waste your time on the site. I don’t get it. Buy whatever makes you happy and enjoy it !

There are auto journalists from major publications who talk about how they text and drive. Just because a journalist says something doesn’t mean it’s true , representative of any cars other than the one they drove or even real.

[SLGrassoPA]

Panscan340 - it does make sense. When you have a car that is so vague and lacks communication at center - like the 330 and 340, and wanders a few inches one way and then a few the other way at any speed over 35-40MPH, it will indeed require constant corrections.

What I am talking about is right on, exactly, what this well known M / AMG / RS reviewer is talking about at 22:30.

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1774603

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by Panscan340

Sounds like bad drivers or people not paying attention. I don’t understand. If the front end is properly aligned and the road is flat, barring something being wrong with the car, you should not need to touch the steering wheel to keep the car straight.

I have a 2023 340 and yes I can literally let go of the wheel and it will stay dead straight in the lane. Steering feel is def subjective of course. But I don’t understand claiming the car can’t drive straight. It also seems discordant if you’re saying it has loose steering feel but needs constant adjustments? That makes no sense. I could see a car with really tight direct connection to the wheels needing more adjustments bc microscopic changes in steering wheel position cause a change in where the front tires are pointed.

The vagueness means certain drivers tighten up on the steering wheel, inadvertently causing microadjustments. I am fairly certain this is how this happens. You wouldn't know it unless you bounce from a stiff steering wheel like my E90 to a really lose steering wheel like a Subaru Impreza, which is what I used to do. This same exact phenomenon happens.

It is also why some people do and some people don't feel it. Loosing the grip on the steering wheel in a straight line should help alleviate the issue. I don't feel any issues with my M340i on this while on the highway so far, and it may very well be because I am more used to driving some really vague, utterly useless steering racks. I find it no worse or better, just different, than my E90. The M340i steering is like a million times better than my family's Subaru

[SLGrassoPA]

At the end of the day, this thread is basically about M340 vs. M3. When it comes to engine, steering, suspension, etc... I think anyone commenting needs to have driven both.

I personally found the steering to be the biggest difference by far - with the M3 having an amazingly connected, engaging and brilliant steering rack; absolutely great in every way. Yes, electronic steering can be great when it's done right.

The 340 and (to a bit of a lesser extent) the 330 steering, however, left a lot to be desired and was simply vague and wandered.

Aside from the HK stereo and the steering, I think the 340 (and the 330) are splendid vehicles.

If you are considering any of these cars, it's good to read reviews, but much more important to drive both back to back.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Panscan340

M3 doesn’t have that much more grip. Skid pad numbers aren’t that much better. Audi RS cars notoriously have pretty horrendous steering feel with vague front ends

Couple issues here

1) 1.03/1.04 lateral G is significantly higher than 0.96 G
2) The roadholding skidpad only gives us an indication of maximum lateral Gs in one direction, and it's really not a good indication of overall handling. It says nothing about weight transfer if a car was to, say, change directions (not necessary multiple corners, but even going in a straight line and suddenly changing direction). If all you ever did was drive in a literal circle, then sure the roadholding skidpad would give us some great data... but I'm assuming nobody really does that.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

If all you ever did was drive in a literal circle, then sure the roadholding skidpad would give us some great data... but I'm assuming nobody really does that.

Did somebody say DONUTS??

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Did somebody say DONUTS??

funny, I was literally thinking that as I was typing it.

[Panscan340]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Couple issues here

1) 1.03/1.04 lateral G is significantly higher than 0.96 G
2) The roadholding skidpad only gives us an indication of maximum lateral Gs in one direction, and it's really not a good indication of overall handling. It says nothing about weight transfer if a car was to, say, change directions (not necessary multiple corners, but even going in a straight line and suddenly changing direction). If all you ever did was drive in a literal circle, then sure the roadholding skidpad would give us some great data... but I'm assuming nobody really does that.

Fair points. I guess my main point is some seem to describe the m3 as being on rails while the 340 is like a boat. The m3 is def better I just feel the diff is often exaggerated/overstated in this regard.

[JABCAT]

Re: 330 steering, I've read the complaints and I don't have any of the issues with steering or needing to make corrections. I drive my vehicle 500 miles every weekend (250 all highway, each way) and have no issue with the car going straight. It also makes very easy & quick lane changes with minimal driver input which I like. My daily commute has about 7 miles of very hilly and curvy road that I find enjoyable to drive each day. The 330 doesn't handle those curves as well as my Z06, but it's also nearly 1k lbs heavier with much narrower tires. I don't find it numb like many complain of.

I do think it's a shame the base M3 only comes in a manual transmission, and that I'd need to step up to the comp to get an auto. I love the mt in my Z06 & wouldn't have an auto Corvette, but a don't want an mt for my daily driver.

The M340ix seems like the best value performance trim level. If you just need to have the top dog to say you have the top dog, then the M3 Comp is the pick.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Panscan340

Fair points. I guess my main point is some seem to describe the m3 as being on rails while the 340 is like a boat. The m3 is def better I just feel the diff is often exaggerated/overstated in this regard.

Yeah m340i is definitely not a boat. It handles very well for what it is and is still pretty nimble. I do think it's under-tired however, and that lends to some severe cases of understeer when you suddenly take a sharp turn.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by SLGrassoPA

Panscan340 - it does make sense. When you have a car that is so vague and lacks communication at center - like the 330 and 340, and wanders a few inches one way and then a few the other way at any speed over 35-40MPH, it will indeed require constant corrections.

What I am talking about is right on, exactly, what this well known M / AMG / RS reviewer is talking about at 22:30.

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1774603

The video you reference shows there is something wrong with the car on test, as some of the steering correction is clearly not normal. Other M340i/d test review videos do not show that need for correction, or even mention any need to.

The fact there are examples with issues does not mean there is an inherent fault. 330i and 340i use different racks, the 330i a double pinion, the M340i a paraxial APA rack, also used in the 5-series which you say doesn't have the issues.

I've driven a G20 M-sport (318d, setup like the 330i) with the double pinion steering and it drove as straight as a die, no need for any corrections. Steering was I'd expect in a well aligned BMW.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Panscan340

I don’t understand. If the front end is properly aligned and the road is flat, barring something being wrong with the car, you should not need to touch the steering wheel to keep the car straight.

Exactly. My experience of over 50-years, there is always something wrong when a car doesn't/can't track straight. Something is loose, (outside design and/or tolerance specs), alignment, tires and/or tire pressures.

Of course some steering systems are better than others for precision, but BMW's EPS is not typically lacking in precision when set up correctly.

[TheMaxXHD]

In conclusion...

Roses are red, violets are blue,
An M3 is an M3, an M340i is an M340i

Driving any BMW is an absolute joy.