[Jason]

[Germanauto]

They didn't seem enthralled by any one of these cars. Common, predictable, sensible; not inspiring.

I know a car in this price/power range that is thrilling with every turn of the wheel.

[Zyzzthetic]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

They didn't seem enthralled by any one of these cars. Common, predictable, sensible; not inspiring.

I know a car in this price/power range that is thrilling with every turn of the wheel.

What car?

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Zyzzthetic

What car?

I think he’s referring to the car he drives.

[unfoundnemo]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I think he’s referring to the car he drives.

It's just unfortunate that the thrill in turning those wheels is while it's being pushed back to the shop.

[NYC1993]

Here is my question: Why is the Audi so much faster than the BMW and Mercedes when they all basically have a similar engine - by the same testing done by Road and Track Magazine???

Can't BMW further tune the 4 cylinder to stay competitive in the 0-60?

MB C Class: 5.3 in the 0-60:

https://www.caranddriver.com/mercedes-benz/c-class

BMW 330: 5.2 in the 0-60:

https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/3-series

AUDI A4: 4.8 in the 0-60:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

[alpinewhite3]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

They didn't seem enthralled by any one of these cars. Common, predictable, sensible; not inspiring.

I know a car in this price/power range that is thrilling with every turn of the wheel.

That describes today's average "buyer" of these sedans perfectly: Common, predictable, sensible; not inspiring. And thus German brands cater to their needs/wants.

Just look at the comments on the video, a guy chose an A4 because it was "so composed and so confident". He wanted a daily driver that was super safe with a "hint of fun". I can't scoff enough at this. The A4 is one of the most mind numbingly boring sedans i've ever driven.

These buyers killed the sports sedan. I've even seen this forum change over the last 20 years. The G20 is too big, too heavy to be called a sports sedan. You all can disagree but i will die on that hill.

[alpinewhite3]

Originally Posted by NYC1993

Here is my question: Why is the Audi so much faster than the BMW and Mercedes when they all basically have a similar engine - by the same testing done by Road and Track Magazine???

Can't BMW further tune the 4 cylinder to stay competitive in the 0-60?

MB C Class: 5.3 in the 0-60:

https://www.caranddriver.com/mercedes-benz/c-class

BMW 330: 5.2 in the 0-60:

https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/3-series

AUDI A4: 4.8 in the 0-60:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

Just a combo platter of: a tiny bit of extra power from the mild hybrid system along with the summer continental sportcontact tires (which are light years ahead of the garbage runflat bridgestones BMW stubbornly won't stop using). Probably also why the 330i's .89 skidpad is in crossover territory and downright embarassing-which goes back to my post above.

How hard is it to ship a god damn sports sedan with M sport package with Michelin pilot sports?? Why ruin the car right out of the factory? What kind of terrible contractual agreement did they sign with Bridgestone?

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by alpinewhite3

That describes today's average "buyer" of these sedans perfectly: Common, predictable, sensible; not inspiring. And thus German brands cater to their needs/wants.

Just look at the comments on the video, a guy chose an A4 because it was "so composed and so confident". He wanted a daily driver that was super safe with a "hint of fun". I can't scoff enough at this. The A4 is one of the most mind numbingly boring sedans i've ever driven.

These buyers killed the sports sedan. I've even seen this forum change over the last 20 years. The G20 is too big, too heavy to be called a sports sedan. You all can disagree but i will die on that hill.

Last 20 years? 20 years ago E46 was out. It was heavier, softer, way more tamed than E36 and E30. Tiff Needle on Fifth Gear said 'M3 is more of a GT car than a sports sedan'. Clarkson on Top Gear put it behind A4 in their comparison test. There was a lot of people complaining how BMW lost their way, E46 had ESC what a shame!, it looked like it was 'melted', etc etc... Same story has been parroted by different generations of dinosaurs. In reality, F30 aside, every single new 3 series BMW was better than the previous one in almost every way. G80 is the best M3 ever, G20 is the best 3 series ever.
I had E92 M3, E93 330i, F82 in the past. G20 M340i is so much better and "inspiring" than all of them and definitely the ultimate definition of a spot sedan, which means it's not a go-cart it's a sedan that can handle daily, it's luxurious and comfortable, but also very fast and enjoyable to drive - unlike Audi and Benz. And every generation of 3 series were comfortable, luxurious, sporty for their time; but the latest gen does it best. It's also worth noting that there's never been a time BMW's almost entire line up easily would win all the comparisons. BMW is at its absolute best, right now, at this moment.

And I know the feeling, even I feel nostalgic for BMWs of my youth sometimes, but when I drove the legendary E39 M5 a few years ago, then walking back to my G30 540i which I had back than; G30 was sharper, faster, less floaty, more balanced, felt LIGHTER (even though it's not - at all), and of course so much of a better place to be. It was definitely more of a sport sedan than the M5 of yesteryear. The only thing that's objectively better with E39 was the steering feel, but didn't matter, because it was super light and not as sharp and direct. I loved being in that E39, the smell, the old dash and that little orange screen... amazing nostalgia. But that's just nostalgia. So yeah, meeting childhood heroes isn't a good idea sometime

[tturedraider]

I can’t believe they didn’t take time to sit in the 3er and discuss those changes. It’s supposed to be a review, right?

[alpinewhite3]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Last 20 years? 20 years ago E46 was out. It was heavier, softer, way more tamed than E36 and E30. Tiff Needle on Fifth Gear said 'M3 is more of a GT car than a sports sedan'. Clarkson on Top Gear put it behind A4 in their comparison test. There was a lot of people complaining how BMW lost their way, E46 had ESC what a shame!, it looked like it was 'melted', etc etc... Same story has been parroted by different generations of dinosaurs. In reality, F30 aside, every single new 3 series BMW was better than the previous one in almost every way. G80 is the best M3 ever, G20 is the best 3 series ever.
I had E92 M3, E93 330i, F82 in the past. G20 M340i is so much better and "inspiring" than all of them and definitely the ultimate definition of a spot sedan, which means it's not a go-cart it's a sedan that can handle daily, it's luxurious and comfortable, but also very fast and enjoyable to drive - unlike Audi and Benz. And every generation of 3 series were comfortable, luxurious, sporty for their time; but the latest gen does it best. It's also worth noting that there's never been a time BMW's almost entire line up easily would win all the comparisons. BMW is at its absolute best, right now, at this moment. Even I feel nostalgic for BMWs of my childhood sometimes, but when I drove the legendary E39 M5 a few years ago, then walking back to my G30 540i; 540i was sharper, faster, less floaty, more balanced, felt LIGHTER (even though it's not - at all). and of course so much of a better place to be. E39 only had better steering feel, but the steering was lighter than G30 sport mode. So yeah, meeting childhood heroes isn't a good idea sometime

Agree to disagree I guess i'll personally never be able to get used to the new size and weight of the G20 along with the slow, lifeless, numb steering.

I can't comment on the 540 but I had a G30 530i loaner. Good god, what an abomination. Absolute land yacht. It's big, heavy, numb, lacking any kind of steering feel. Steering ratio slower than a 90's Buick. Floats around town. Felt nervous taking a corner at 30mph. The kicker- it wasnt even all that comfortable or luxurious! It's an insult to the E39 in every way possible.

[RCtennis3811]

Originally Posted by NYC1993

Here is my question: Why is the Audi so much faster than the BMW and Mercedes when they all basically have a similar engine - by the same testing done by Road and Track Magazine???

Can't BMW further tune the 4 cylinder to stay competitive in the 0-60?

MB C Class: 5.3 in the 0-60:

https://www.caranddriver.com/mercedes-benz/c-class

BMW 330: 5.2 in the 0-60:

https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/3-series

AUDI A4: 4.8 in the 0-60:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

This gen of A4 was slower than the 330i initially, but Audi refreshed it with a 48v mild hybrid system that helps launches and fuel economy slightly.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by alpinewhite3

That describes today's average "buyer" of these sedans perfectly: Common, predictable, sensible; not inspiring. And thus German brands cater to their needs/wants.

Just look at the comments on the video, a guy chose an A4 because it was "so composed and so confident". He wanted a daily driver that was super safe with a "hint of fun". I can't scoff enough at this. The A4 is one of the most mind numbingly boring sedans i've ever driven.

These buyers killed the sports sedan. I've even seen this forum change over the last 20 years. The G20 is too big, too heavy to be called a sports sedan. You all can disagree but i will die on that hill.

Yupp exactly. I do think the G20 deserves more credit than you're giving it. At least in M sport guise it is a good sport sedan, and the M340 has a class leading powertrain. But i feel the G20s have to be pushed pretty hard to "feel" the magic.

Personally I was corrupted by my dear E90 lol. So I love a compact nimble little sedan with communicative steering. The G20 just isn't that, especially not the basic lease special model in this TH video.

[alpinewhite3]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

Last 20 years? 20 years ago E46 was out. It was heavier, softer, way more tamed than E36 and E30. Tiff Needle on Fifth Gear said 'M3 is more of a GT car than a sports sedan'. Clarkson on Top Gear put it behind A4 in their comparison test. There was a lot of people complaining how BMW lost their way, E46 had ESC what a shame!, it looked like it was 'melted', etc etc... Same story has been parroted by different generations of dinosaurs. In reality, F30 aside, every single new 3 series BMW was better than the previous one in almost every way. G80 is the best M3 ever, G20 is the best 3 series ever.
I had E92 M3, E93 330i, F82 in the past. G20 M340i is so much better and "inspiring" than all of them and definitely the ultimate definition of a spot sedan, which means it's not a go-cart it's a sedan that can handle daily, it's luxurious and comfortable, but also very fast and enjoyable to drive - unlike Audi and Benz. And every generation of 3 series were comfortable, luxurious, sporty for their time; but the latest gen does it best. It's also worth noting that there's never been a time BMW's almost entire line up easily would win all the comparisons. BMW is at its absolute best, right now, at this moment.

And I know the feeling, even I feel nostalgic for BMWs of my youth sometimes, but when I drove the legendary E39 M5 a few years ago, then walking back to my G30 540i which I had back than; G30 was sharper, faster, less floaty, more balanced, felt LIGHTER (even though it's not - at all), and of course so much of a better place to be. It was definitely more of a sport sedan than the M5 of yesteryear. The only thing that's objectively better with E39 was the steering feel, but didn't matter, because it was super light and not as sharp and direct. I loved being in that E39, the smell, the old dash and that little orange screen... amazing nostalgia. But that's just nostalgia. So yeah, meeting childhood heroes isn't a good idea sometime

Give me the G20 330i coming in at around 3200-3300 lbs. Rear wheel drive.

Same 4 liter turbo engine. 4.8 0-60 time with a sub 14 1/4 mile. 35 MPG highway.

Same new interior design, tech, fit and finish and materials.

Delete sunroof as standard. Non-metallic paint.

178"-180" length with a 105.1"ish wheelbase.

Super quick 12.1 ratio steering similar to the Giulia's. More road feedback.

M sports package shipping with lightweight 18" (235/35/18) wheels along with Michelin Pilot's as standard spec. >.95g Skidpad.

Keep the same chassis even. I would buy that car and keep it for as long as it will go.

Did i miss anything?

[alpinewhite3]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

Yupp exactly. I do think the G20 deserves more credit than you're giving it. At least in M sport guise it is a good sport sedan, and the M340 has a class leading powertrain. But i feel the G20s have to be pushed pretty hard to "feel" the magic.

Personally I was corrupted by my dear E90 lol. So I love a compact nimble little sedan with communicative steering. The G20 just isn't that, especially not the basic lease special model in this TH video.

Yeah I'm being harsh, but i expected more from BMW. That's all I want- A compact, nimble, little sedan with communicative steering and a sporty chassis. Most of us never take the car to the track and it's really difficult to toss the g20 around in daily driving.

G20 chassis is definitely class leading, but is that saying much in 2022? At some point, you can't defy the laws of physics.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by alpinewhite3

Yeah I'm being harsh, but i expected more from BMW. G20 chassis is definitely class leading, but is that saying much in 2022?

I'd still argue the Giorgio chassis is class leading. G20 certainly wins in powertrain.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by alpinewhite3

Give me the G20 330i coming in at around 3200-3300 lbs. Rear wheel drive.

Same 4 liter turbo engine. 4.8 0-60 time with a sub 14 1/4 mile. 35 MPG highway.

Same new interior design, tech, fit and finish and materials.

Delete sunroof as standard. Non-metallic paint.

178"-180" length with a 105.1"ish wheelbase.

Super quick 12.1 ratio steering similar to the Giulia's. More road feedback.

M sports package shipping with lightweight 18" (235/35/18) wheels along with Michelin Pilot's as standard spec. >.95g Skidpad.

Keep the same chassis even. I would buy that car and keep it for as long as it will go.

Did i miss anything?

How are you realistically cutting the weight?

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by RCtennis3811

This gen of A4 was slower than the 330i initially, but Audi refreshed it with a 48v mild hybrid system that helps launches and fuel economy slightly.

The G20 330i xDrive had almost the exact numbers as the pre-refresh B9 A4 (5.2 to 60 and 13.9 in the 1/4 mile) according to C&D. The B9.5 A4 refresh with the mild hybrid helped a bit (13hp extra) but it was transmission tuning and gear ratio changes that really helped bring its off the line numbers down.

[alpinewhite3]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

How are you realistically cutting the weight?

3400lbs is probably a more realistic target. But take out 80 pounds for the sunroof, 10 pounds for the metallic paint, 20-25 lb savings going from 19" wheels to 18", i could at least spec it coming in closer to 3300. But this is all in my dreams anyway.

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by NYC1993

Here is my question: Why is the Audi so much faster than the BMW and Mercedes when they all basically have a similar engine - by the same testing done by Road and Track Magazine???

Can't BMW further tune the 4 cylinder to stay competitive in the 0-60?

MB C Class: 5.3 in the 0-60:

https://www.caranddriver.com/mercedes-benz/c-class

BMW 330: 5.2 in the 0-60:

https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/3-series

AUDI A4: 4.8 in the 0-60:

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

I would give credit to the dual clutch transmission in the A4 it can launch harder and shift faster than a traditional torque converter transmission.

[ASAP]

I dont think any of these cars in their non m, rs, amg versions is special at all... everyone of these companies went way backwards w their sedans and way forward w their suv's. This is simply what the market had demanded... i bought an x3 because I think it punches above its weight whearas the 340i is subpar as a sports sedan.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by alpinewhite3

3400lbs is probably a more realistic target. But take out 80 pounds for the sunroof, 10 pounds for the metallic paint, 20-25 lb savings going from 19" wheels to 18", i could at least spec it coming in closer to 3300. But this is all in my dreams anyway.

It's still a sport sedan though, key word sedan. So it has to have some creature comforts like sunroof and what not. For as large as the G20 is, I'm pretty impressed the 330i comes out around 3600 lbs.

The Giulia comes in just a little lighter, but the lovely thing is how it manages to feel so nimble and go kart-like. If you can put up with not having a super powerful car, I think it's a good choice for you.