[solstice]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It is another to be blissfully positive in argumentation about something to the point of fanboism.

Well some of us are fans and I see no wrong in embracing positive reviews. I do see harm or at least little value in keep harping on paper negatives after proven to be of no or little impact to the driving experience.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

Well some of us are fans and I see no wrong in embracing positive reviews. I do see harm or at least little value in keep harping on paper negatives after proven to be of no or little impact to the driving experience.

I also acknowledge positive points in reviews, but I do not ignore or find justifications for the negative ones. I do see wrong in the latter. I am not hating on the G8X, I try to be as objective as possible looking at the pros and cons, just as I did when the E46, E9X and F8X were released.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

You are correct. His point always is that they could have done better and chose not to.

I do worry about brake wear and tear because I plan on tracking this thing a lot and I generally only get 1 set of brakes per lease covered under warranty (my Service Adviser and I have a deal lol).

The front brakes which take the brunt of abuse look to be upgraded to deal with the extra weight and speed. My guess is that wear rate should be similar as your current car (or maybe not since you have a CS but vs the civic F8X) or at least not hugely worse. That is unless you are factors faster in the new car but I’m sure you don’t mind too much paying extra for that

[jmg]

Originally Posted by matmanx1

Oh I see. So you are saying it's better to compare something that doesn't exist or exists only as a potentiality whereas I was trying to give a real world example.

No, I'm saying you are comparing a purpose built sports car to a regular sedan. The M3/4 is not a purpose built sports car.

I am not comparing the M3/4 to another car, I'm judging it by it's own merits. I think it's overweight. In essence, when we have a criticism of something, it's a comparison against its own potential. If I say a car has too stiff a suspension, am I not also saying that a softer suspension would improve the car? It doesn't exist as you say, yet it is a valid comparison. Thus, a lighter G80 would be an improvement over a heavier G80. It also doesn't exist, but it's a valid comparison nonetheless.

Originally Posted by matmanx1

I think you also might have missed the point where I said there are far more important factors than weight.

Of course there are other factors than weight. But YOU are missing MY point. If the G80 retains ALL the same characteristics as it does currently, but is merely lighter by 200-300 lbs, wouldn't that be an improvement in it's overall performance in almost every single category? (assuming suspension is adjusted to account for less weight)

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by bri1042

How is that even relevant to the discussion? Cars are cars. The industry trend is visible on almost every car maker.

And, yes, in some ways I would say it is. It excelled in it's class and drove the small car market for decades. It inspired legions of folk who can't afford M anything, and many of them are not happy with the size of the current Type R.

Yep, including the Porsche 911. They keep getting heavier and heavier.

[Scorp!on]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I also acknowledge positive points in reviews, but I do not ignore or find justifications for the negative ones. I do see wrong in the latter. I am not hating on the G8X, I try to be as objective as possible looking at the pros and cons, just as I did when the E46, E9X and F8X were released.

I don't disaggree with you of course, your point makes sense though.

But keep in mind:
The base is the GXX series and that's what they had to work with.

Now see it as a car manufactor:
Try to lower the weight, increase the power, better the suspension, make it stiffer, give all the tech gimmicks people want and all that for a reasonable price.
You do see that somewhere you have to make compromises, right?

And i'm not going to argue with you on the comparsion with the F8X, imo the F8X are the best cars they ever made.
But maybe the base F3X there just gave more space to improve and save weight than the GXX, and not going to lie, the GXX base are already VERY VERY good cars in their according classes.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by solstice

The front brakes which take the brunt of abuse look to be upgraded to deal with the extra weight and speed. My guess is that wear rate should be similar as your current car (or maybe not since you have a CS but vs the civic F8X) or at least not hugely worse. That is unless you are factors faster in the new car but I’m sure you don’t mind too much paying extra for that

Imagine if it had the same front brake upgrade, but the car didn't actually get heavier? Shorter braking distances, less heat, less brake fade, less consumption.

I get it, you can overcome the weight disadvantage... but all those improvements they do to compensate for the weight can be done to a lighter car for even better results. Weight is always a disadvantage when it comes to automotive performance.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Yep, including the Porsche 911. They keep getting heavier and heavier.

Indeed.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Scorp!on

I don't disaggree with you of course, your point makes sense though.

But keep in mind:
The base is the GXX series and that's what they had to work with.

Now see it as a car manufactor:
Try to lower the weight, increase the power, better the suspension, make it stiffer, give all the tech gimmicks people want and all that for a reasonable price.
You do see that somewhere you have to make compromises, right?

And i'm not going to argue with you on the comparsion with the F8X, imo the F8X are the best cars they ever made.
But maybe the base F3X there just gave more space to improve and save weight than the GXX, and not going to lie, the GXX base are already VERY VERY good cars in their according classes.

This goes back to when the G20 arrived. It's simply too big for a 3 series. We knew this would affect the G80 negatively, which is why I was disappointed with the M340i's weight and size increase. So when I say the G80 is too big and too heavy, that goes for the G20 as well.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by jmg

Weight is always a disadvantage when it comes to automotive performance.

This is just false. If it was true you would have 1cc engines in cars made of paper being better than current F1 cars...

Adding performance sooner or later mean adding weight and that’s after you exhausted weight savings within the budget constraints.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Indeed.

Amazing that it still essentially looks the same. Design is the definition of timeless.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by solstice

This is just false. If it was true you would have 1cc engines in cars made of paper being better than current F1 cars...

You're fundamentally missing the point. Whether or not it is an acceptable compromise is another question.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by jmg

You're fundamentally missing the point. Whether or not it is an acceptable compromise is another question.

love watching a 2 star general battle a 3 star. i feel like i'm watching my parents fight.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by frankiebones

love watching a 2 star general battle a 3 star. i feel like i'm watching my parents fight.

I hope I'm the three star

But I'm just trying to provide perspective. No battle here, we all want the same thing: a fun awesome car

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by jmg

I hope I'm the three star

But I'm just trying to provide perspective. No battle here, we all want the same thing: a fun awesome car

Yes, you're the 3 star and for the purposes of my comment, the word "fight" added the necessary dramatic purpose haha.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by jmg

You're fundamentally missing the point. Whether or not it is an acceptable compromise is another question.

I don’t think I am. I don’t disagree that lighten a car by removing dead weight and adding minor power upgrades will make it perform better, who would?

BMW did just that with the CS and priced it accordingly. It wasn’t popular and it was a sales failure at msrp. Do you blame them for shifting tactics and instead adding power and upgraded chassis, wheels, tires and brakes with a smallish weight penalty for the next car?

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by jmg

This is such a passive aggressive statement. I would have loved to hear that the G80 with a full tank is sub 3700. Why would that make my week terrible?

I'm not a G80 denier because it's fun or because I don't have one. I'm a denier because it's ugly, and it is in fact bigger and heavier. I'm just going off what BMW has released. It not like there is anything stopping me from getting a G80 except my opinion of the car. There is no benefit from being a "denier". I want to like the G80.

I have to admit, in this spec the weight isn't as bad as it seems but I do want to see a full tank weight. My M3 CS was lighter than this with an almost full tank and it has a DCT.

There is nothing passive aggressive in my statement and I couldn't care less whether you and others like/want to like/plan to buy the G80 or not. I did, however, find the collective hysteria by the so-called BMW enthusiasts upon the release of first G80 images highly entertaining

[RugbyBro]

Interesting where this thread has gone. I'll say in response to solstice's question on when detractors will fade as it relates to this discussion, I think they have already to a large extent. Many of us F8X guys are moving on and trying to appreciate G8X for what it is and lend a helpful perspective. As it relate to this thread, IMO there is no good or bad, there just is what "is". CanAutM3 & jmg are just pointing out things that "are" rather than expressly making an opinion on G8X itself. Everything has a trade-off, and while they aren't apparent yet with G8X based on limited market exposure and real consumer perspective, they will be there. It goes without saying, that's not an opinion on whether G8X is a good car or whether those trade offs are meaningful to the end-user.

There's always three sides to everything - his, hers, & the truth. G8X seems to be lightning rod for the first two.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by solstice

I don’t think I am. I don’t disagree that lighten a car by removing dead weight and adding minor power upgrades will make it perform better, who would?

BMW did just that with the CS and priced it accordingly. It wasn’t popular and it was a sales failure at msrp. Do you blame them for shifting tactics and instead adding power and upgraded chassis, wheels, tires and brakes with a smallish weight penalty for the next car?

I would argue that stiffening the car chassis with braces is more important for an amateur track user like me and this is exactly what BMW has done with the G80/G82. Naturally, all these additional braces add some weight.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by j23

So the car is 700-800 lbs heavier than e46 M3 CSL and people are ecstatic?!

LOL

Not only this, it is also 2000 lbs heavier than Ford Model T. BMW is a joke

[solstice]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

I would argue that stiffening the car chassis with braces is more important for an amateur track user like me and this is exactly what BMW has done with the G80/G82. Naturally, all these additional braces add some weight.

Yup functional weight aimed at increasing performance is self explanatory.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by solstice

I don’t think I am. I don’t disagree that lighten a car by removing dead weight and adding minor power upgrades will make it perform better, who would?

BMW did just that with the CS and priced it accordingly. It wasn’t popular and it was a sales failure at msrp. Do you blame them for shifting tactics and instead adding power and upgraded chassis, wheels, tires and brakes with a smallish weight penalty for the next car?

The F80 CS is built upon the limitations of the F80 and therefor F30 chassis. The G80 is built upon the limitations of the G20 chassis. The G20 is bigger than the F30. Unless lighter more expensive weight savings strategies are used, it's going to be heavier simply because there is more car.

AGAIN, they could have upgraded the chassis (stiffness, weight distribution etc) without increasing size, upgraded the engine, brakes etc and have an even better G80.

I'll ask a hypothetical. If the G80, still has the same S58, same power, same 6MT, wheels, brakes, + all the other upgrades that it currently comes in, but was 5 inches shorter, and 200 lbs lighter, is that better or worse than the same car but 5 inches longer but 200lbs heavier? Ok I get it, 5 inches of car isn't 200lbs, BMW probably added some bracing, tech hardware etc... so lets say only 150lbs heavier.