[vladmury]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

Is G20 320d pricing in Denmark skewed by government EV incentives and excessive tax on ICEs? Also is Denmark government planning to eliminate EV tax breaks by 2020?

ICE cars always had 150% tax, EV cars have only 20 % for now until 2020.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by vladmury

I don't understand why so much hate on Tesla Model 3?

I cannot speak for others, but "hate" is quite an exaggeration for my rejection. After a year and more of looking forward to the car, with my deposit in their account, the learning curve about the product and process increased significantly and I concluded it just wasn't going to be good or reliable enough. Deposit canceled and returned.

Being still interested in general, I examined several cars, including those deemed worthy of showroom display, and the results were worse than I expected for poor fit/finish from front to rear fascias and in-between and for interior trim. It all seemed quite amateur. Then, reading more about the primitive body design, some electrical design, (other than the excellent powertrain) such as only power door handles in rear, HMI (replacing several tactile controls with having to take eyes off the road onto the screen for almost everything), and far-less-than-robust assembly process, more evidence for me that this first generation was not up to standards.

That does not add up to "hate". It adds up to a personal opinion and resulting choice. Enough time is now passing, as I needed an alternative in early 2018, that for my next cycle (January 2021), there will be more choices from more experienced and proficient sources, ranging from BMW and MB to Polestar (Volvo) to GM/Ford and others.

Tesla will likely have made improvements since launch. All manufacturers do, but they started from a far lower place, have further to go, and their competitive advantage will be far diminshed, if not gone, by the time they get to a second generation. I can't anticipate a reason I would choose 2021 Tesla Model 3 over a BMW i4 or Polestar Model 2, both designed to target it, for example.

[vladmury]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I cannot speak for others, but "hate" is quite an exaggeration for my rejection. After a year and more of looking forward to the car, with my deposit in their account, the learning curve about the product and process increased significantly and I concluded it just wasn't going to be good or reliable enough. Deposit canceled and returned.

Being still interested in general, I examined several cars, including those deemed worthy of showroom display, and the results were worse than I expected for poor fit/finish from front to rear fascias and in-between and for interior trim. It all seemed quite amateur. Then, reading more about the primitive body design, some electrical design, (other than the excellent powertrain) such as only power door handles in rear, HMI (replacing several tactile controls with having to take eyes off the road onto the screen for almost everything), and far-less-than-robust assembly process, more evidence for me that this first generation was not up to standards.

That does not add up to "hate". It adds up to a personal opinion and resulting choice. Enough time is now passing, as I needed an alternative in early 2018, that for my next cycle (January 2021), there will be more choices from more experienced and proficient sources, ranging from BMW and MB to Polestar (Volvo) to GM/Ford and others.

Tesla will likely have made improvements since launch. All manufacturers do, but they started from a far lower place, have further to go, and their competitive advantage will be far diminshed, if not gone, by the time they get to a second generation. I can't anticipate a reason I would choose 2021 Tesla Model 3 over a BMW i4 or Polestar Model 2, both designed to target it, for example.

I agree with you, Tesla does not have the experience of a mature car manufacturer to mass produce cars at a high quality standard.

While they rushed to release and produce the car to satisfy the demand, they forgot or overlooked some things, but I think things will go better.

To be honest the BMW E90 is the last real BMW that gives the feeling of ultimate driving machine. The models after 2010 are just meah to me, nothing special besides nice gadgets. Drove a 535i F10 today M sport fully loaded and was not impressed, drive Ok but nothing of what I would expect from a BMW. Then sales guy insisted to try a new G30 530i and that wasnt better.
I dont know if the G20 will be again a great 3 series but time will tell I guess.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by vladmury

I agree with you, Tesla does not have the experience of a mature car manufacturer to mass produce cars at a high quality standard.

While they rushed to release and produce the car to satisfy the demand, they forgot or overlooked some things, but I think things will go better.

To be honest the BMW E90 is the last real BMW that gives the feeling of ultimate driving machine. The models after 2010 are just meah to me, nothing special besides nice gadgets. Drove a 535i F10 today M sport fully loaded and was not impressed, drive Ok but nothing of what I would expect from a BMW. Then sales guy insisted to try a new G30 530i and that wasnt better.
I dont know if the G20 will be again a great 3 series but time will tell I guess.

While I enjoyed my E90, I believe my G30 530i is a huge step up in many respects. I see it very differently.

E90 is an old car (14+ year old design) now days and wasn't perfect. Bit of a cramped cabin, hard seats, overly heavy steering (Note: that has nothing to do with road feel/feedback), a suspension where everything was felt (The base suspension was great but not as supple), low on amenities, dated electronics, some questionable rubberized plastics on the interior (door handles), halogen headlights, dated 6-speed automatic and notchy 6-speed manual gearbox. Let's not even go into the safety features or lack of thereof

Sure the N52 engine I had was wonderful but was a bit of a gas hog in the city, the car had solid build quality and the driving dynamics were great as one would expect.

However, my G30 is light years ahead of it in every conceivable measurement. I do not see myself ever going back to an E90 (Perhaps an E90 M3 for weekends would be the clear exception).

[vladmury]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

While I enjoyed my E90, I believe my G30 530i is a huge step up in many respects. I see it very differently.

E90 is an old car (14+ year old design) now days and wasn't perfect. Bit of a cramped cabin, hard seats, overly heavy steering (Note: that has nothing to do with road feel/feedback), a suspension where everything was felt (The base suspension was great but not as supple), low on amenities, dated electronics, some questionable rubberized plastics on the interior (door handles), halogen headlights, dated 6-speed automatic and notchy 6-speed manual gearbox. Let's not even go into the safety features or lack of thereof

Sure the N52 engine I had was wonderful but was a bit of a gas hog in the city, the car had solid build quality and the driving dynamics were great as one would expect.

However, my G30 is light years ahead of it in every conceivable measurement. I do not see myself ever going back to an E90 (Perhaps an E90 M3 for weekends would be the clear exception).

My E90 was LCI M sport with leather sport seats with memory, sport suspension, Harman Kardon, CIC navigation. I think the tech was OK also reliability wise.

The G30 I tested was brand new car without any of the options above mentioned. Its not a bad car by any means but steering felt artificial and suspension too soft for my taste. The 2.0 petrol engine was good but nothing exciting. It has a price of $92.000 in Denmark so in my opinion not worth it.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by vladmury

My E90 was LCI M sport with leather sport seats with memory, sport suspension, Harman Kardon, CIC navigation. I think the tech was OK also reliability wise.

The G30 I tested was brand new car without any of the options above mentioned. Its not a bad car by any means but steering felt artificial and suspension too soft for my taste. The 2.0 petrol engine was good but nothing exciting. It has a price of $92.000 in Denmark so in my opinion not worth it.

I believe the closest new BMW in terms of look and feel to an E90 would be the 2er.

My E90 was also LCI and made in 2011 which was the last year the E90 was manufactured before the F30 took over.

Even for a car made in 2011, I felt my E90 was a bit behind the times and low in interior amenities compared to other cars in its immediate price bracket. Mine was a basic spec, Dakota leather, sunroof, 17" wheels, automatic, Professional stereo with CD player, self dimming mirrors, no iDrive (Bluetooth only available for phone calls but no audio streaming from the iPhone even though the car had the COMBOX from factory that fully supported BT for both) and halogens.

Loved the car and enjoyed it but by this time last year I decided it was time to upgrade to a more modern and up to date BMW😉.

I love Denmark (I have travelled to Scandinavia frequently in the past couple of years) but you guys really get screwed with new car prices there. Probably the most expensive and highly taxed new car prices of the whole European Union.

[vladmury]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

I love Denmark (I have travelled to Scandinavia frequently in the past couple of years) but you guys really get screwed with new car prices there. Probably the most expensive and highly taxed new car prices of the whole European Union.

True , the cars here cost double as much as compared to Germany. Its really sad for car enthusiasts not to be able to buy a proper car even after hard work.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

I believe the closest new BMW in terms of look and feel to an E90 would be the 2er.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by vladmury

ICE cars always had 150% tax, EV cars have only 20 % for now until 2020.

That is brutal, and EV won't be spared after 2020. So by 2020, will Model 3 still be priced competitively to G20 320d?

[vladmury]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

That is brutal, and EV won't be spared after 2020. So by 2020, will Model 3 still be priced competitively to G20 320d?

The plan is to gradually increase the registration tax on EVs until it reaches the same level as on ICE cars. However, there is a strong backup from EU parliament to increase the adoption of EVs in Europe so the EVs might continue with only 20% tax for some years.

[openwheelracing]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I had a Tesla deposit for more than a year, and canceled as I learned more. Now that I see this, I am more than happy to be a bit more patient while my current lease runs out...

https://www.carscoops.com/2019/01/fi...tesla-model-3/

Compromising with dual purpose ICE and EV, not looking very good imo. If that exhaust tip is real then it's just a 430e. Hopefully that's the case.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by openwheelracing

Compromising with dual purpose ICE and EV, not looking very good imo. If that exhaust tip is real then it's just a 430e. Hopefully that's the case.

One man’s compromise is another’s being ready for a wider range of situations. However, we know BMW is launching a BEV and the consensus is that the appearance of those tailpipes are part of the camouflage on that battery-only vehicle.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

One man’s compromise is another’s being ready for a wider range of situations. However, we know BMW is launching a BEV and the consensus is that the appearance of those tailpipes are part of the camouflage on that battery-only vehicle.

It is unclear if it is a real compromise or not, given BMW can have ingenious ways to fit either ICE or EV on the same chassis and still maintain 50/50 on both.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I cannot speak for others, but "hate" is quite an exaggeration for my rejection. After a year and more of looking forward to the car, with my deposit in their account, the learning curve about the product and process increased significantly and I concluded it just wasn't going to be good or reliable enough. Deposit canceled and returned.

Being still interested in general, I examined several cars, including those deemed worthy of showroom display, and the results were worse than I expected for poor fit/finish from front to rear fascias and in-between and for interior trim. It all seemed quite amateur. Then, reading more about the primitive body design, some electrical design, (other than the excellent powertrain) such as only power door handles in rear, HMI (replacing several tactile controls with having to take eyes off the road onto the screen for almost everything), and far-less-than-robust assembly process, more evidence for me that this first generation was not up to standards.

That does not add up to "hate". It adds up to a personal opinion and resulting choice. Enough time is now passing, as I needed an alternative in early 2018, that for my next cycle (January 2021), there will be more choices from more experienced and proficient sources, ranging from BMW and MB to Polestar (Volvo) to GM/Ford and others.

Tesla will likely have made improvements since launch. All manufacturers do, but they started from a far lower place, have further to go, and their competitive advantage will be far diminshed, if not gone, by the time they get to a second generation. I can't anticipate a reason I would choose 2021 Tesla Model 3 over a BMW i4 or Polestar Model 2, both designed to target it, for example.

Thanks for this post; it perfectly sums up the situation with the Model 3. I stated in a post a few weeks ago that Tesla must be applauded for what it is attempting to accomplish. Tesla is a start-up auto manufacturer producing an automobile that must compete with tens of other different models in its class (i.e. mid-sized 4-door sedan) from other manufacturers, who have grossly more experience in the design and production of automobiles, and all that enjoy a world-wide industry parts production infrastructure to support the manufacture of internal combustion engine-powered automobiles. Conversely, Tesla is trying to stand up a manufacturing company and product line that has relatively no similar supplier base to help reduce the cost of design and production of its products.

The Model 3 simply reflects and is a result of what Tesla is trying to accomplish.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

I believe the closest new BMW in terms of look and feel to an E90 would be the 2er.

My E90 was also LCI and made in 2011 which was the last year the E90 was manufactured before the F30 took over.

Even for a car made in 2011, I felt my E90 was a bit behind the times and low in interior amenities compared to other cars in its immediate price bracket. Mine was a basic spec, Dakota leather, sunroof, 17" wheels, automatic, Professional stereo with CD player, self dimming mirrors, no iDrive (Bluetooth only available for phone calls but no audio streaming from the iPhone even though the car had the COMBOX from factory that fully supported BT for both) and halogens.

Loved the car and enjoyed it but by this time last year I decided it was time to upgrade to a more modern and up to date BMW😉.

I love Denmark (I have travelled to Scandinavia frequently in the past couple of years) but you guys really get screwed with new car prices there. Probably the most expensive and highly taxed new car prices of the whole European Union.

The latest BMW I have driven was a 2017 M-package 430i Coupe. I had it for several hours while the airbag recalls were being accomplished on my 2006 E90. My wife came with me for the day to complete some errands we had planned. She has as much experience with BMW 3-series as I do, being the original driver of our 1989 E30 325i and her daily driver is a 1997 Z3. She has been in my E90 for thousands of miles as a passenger as well. Her immediate reaction to the 430i was of disbelief that it was a product from BMW. All of this assessment came from her just in the passenger seat position, as she didn't care to drive it. I told her she wouldn't want to drive it. She found it uncomfortable in sound, fit and ride quality.

BMW has either managed to lose what it did best with the 3-series, or perhaps its competitors have caught up to BMW and there is nowhere for BMW to go to differentiate itself. All manufacturers produce a 2.0L turbo 4 cylinder. The engineering community has discovered the magic cylinder size for the most efficient combustion is a 1/2 liter of roughly 3.5 inches in bore and stoke. So the N20 has no character as most all 4-cylinder turbos don't either. The 4-cylinder turbo is efficient and powerful, but mostly boring regardless of who designs and manufactures it.

The problem is there are now other respectable cars from other manufacturers that are as good or better than BMW, at a lower price and less hassle than owning the German brand.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

BMW has either managed to lose what it did best with the 3-series, or perhaps its competitors have caught up to BMW and there is nowhere for BMW to go to differentiate itself. All manufacturers produce a 2.0L turbo 4 cylinder. The engineering community has discovered the magic cylinder size for the most efficient combustion is a 1/2 liter of roughly 3.5 inches in bore and stoke. So the N20 has no character as most all 4-cylinder turbos don't either. The 4-cylinder turbo is efficient and powerful, but mostly boring regardless of who designs and manufactures it.

The problem is there are now other respectable cars from other manufacturers that are as good or better than BMW, at a lower price and less hassle than owning the German brand.

My take is that the CARB/emission requirements force the hands of automakers to move towards 4-cylinder turbo. The main difference of that, versus I6 N/A, is that the 4-cylinder turbo requires flat power band to squeeze out fuel efficiency, and that is very different from the surging power band of I6 N/A in the past.

As we know BMW perfects the surging power band of I6 N/A that elicits raw emotion and sensation and feels fast, however, the numbers tell us that the I4 turbo is fast, with the fuel efficiency to back it up.

[bavarianride]

One of the advantages quoted by Model 3 proponents is that Model 3 is cheaper to own and operate than ICE cars. Many of those proponents though also have invested lots of money to install solar panels and upgrade electrical panels(with govt. incentives), so it always puzzles me how cheap Model 3 really is to operate.

As far as cost structure of Model 3 and Tesla in general, the biggest issue faced by Tesla is still low volume, and hence the lack of bargaining power to get cheap parts.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The latest BMW I have driven was a 2017 M-package 430i Coupe. I had it for several hours while the airbag recalls were being accomplished on my 2006 E90. My wife came with me for the day to complete some errands we had planned. She has as much experience with BMW 3-series as I do, being the original driver of our 1989 E30 325i and her daily driver is a 1997 Z3. She has been in my E90 for thousands of miles as a passenger as well. Her immediate reaction to the 430i was of disbelief that it was a product from BMW. All of this assessment came from her just in the passenger seat position, as she didn't care to drive it. I told her she wouldn't want to drive it. She found it uncomfortable in sound, fit and ride quality.

BMW has either managed to lose what it did best with the 3-series, or perhaps its competitors have caught up to BMW and there is nowhere for BMW to go to differentiate itself. All manufacturers produce a 2.0L turbo 4 cylinder. The engineering community has discovered the magic cylinder size for the most efficient combustion is a 1/2 liter of roughly 3.5 inches in bore and stoke. So the N20 has no character as most all 4-cylinder turbos don't either. The 4-cylinder turbo is efficient and powerful, but mostly boring regardless of who designs and manufactures it.

The problem is there are now other respectable cars from other manufacturers that are as good or better than BMW, at a lower price and less hassle than owning the German brand.

Times have surely changed. BMW is perhaps no longer your go to car brand. I don't mind change but others do. Variety is indeed the spice of life.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

My take is that the CARB/emission requirements force the hands of automakers to move towards 4-cylinder turbo. The main difference of that, versus I6 N/A, is that the 4-cylinder turbo requires flat power band to squeeze out fuel efficiency, and that is very different from the surging power band of I6 N/A in the past.

As we know BMW perfects the surging power band of I6 N/A that elicits raw emotion and sensation and feels fast, however, the numbers tell us that the I4 turbo is fast, with the fuel efficiency to back it up.

And the B46/B48 is a much nicer 2 liter 4 pot than the earlier N20.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by bavarianride

One of the advantages quoted by Model 3 proponents is that Model 3 is cheaper to own and operate than ICE cars. Many of those proponents though also have invested lots of money to install solar panels and upgrade electrical panels(with govt. incentives), so it always puzzles me how cheap Model 3 really is to operate.

I have no solar, with the switch from F31 to Model 3 our electric bill increased by $80/mo while gas expenses went down by $200/mo.

Compared to BMW, the first few years of ownership aren't going to be different in any other way since BMW covers maintenance. For people transitioning from other makes, you should obviously consider the cost of oil changes and other engine related maintenance. With Teslas, it's only tires, brakes (fluid every 2 years, pads probably every 100K or so), and battery coolant (4yr/50K).

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

I have no solar, with the switch from F31 to Model 3 our electric bill increased by $80/mo while gas expenses went down by $200/mo.

Compared to BMW, the first few years of ownership aren't going to be different in any other way since BMW covers maintenance. For people transitioning from other makes, you should obviously consider the cost of oil changes and other engine related maintenance. With Teslas, it's only tires, brakes (fluid every 2 years, pads probably every 100K or so), and battery coolant (4yr/50K).

What kind of repair costs are you looking on a Tesla post-warranty?

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

What kind of repair costs are you looking on a Tesla post-warranty?

At this point you should feel free to punch in the face anyone who claims to know what they are going to be. But if we assume the same quality of workmanship (and obviously this is a big and bad assumption), repair costs for any BEV should be tiny compared to any ICE car.

Just thinking about our largest expenses on the BMWs we've kept beyond their warranty periods, about 2/3 of the costs were related to the engine itself or various components under the hood that don't exist on a BEV car. Electric motors, on the other hand, never really break if they're done right (Tesla's were somewhat problematic initially, not anymore), and their battery packs have been shown to last beyond 100K with minimal capacity loss - also, batteries are warrantied to 8yr/120K (or 100K for non-long range), so that's even less of a concern.

So, going back to what I started with: it all depends on how much Tesla improves in the build quality. We already know that Model 3s built in late 2018 are way better than the initial batches from late 2017-early 2018, so the two open questions are how much better they are going to be in the long run, and whether this trend in initial quality is going to continue.