01-25-2019, 05:06 PM | #243 | |
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Would you happen to know if BMW will continue offering the Euro Delivery program? Recent trends are worrying...
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01-25-2019, 07:07 PM | #244 |
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I did forget about the GT3. The GT3 does cost quite a bit more money, though they are definitely a fantastic exception.
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01-25-2019, 07:19 PM | #245 | |
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I believe Audi highlighted the manufacturing locations of many of the models outside of Germany as justification for terminating the program (just like you can't ED an X car built in South Carolina). I bet the Audi program headwinds were compounded by the participation rate. As a member of PCA, BMW CCA and ACNA, I was surprised to see how small the membership of Audi club is compared to Porsche and BMW. PCA claims 130,000 members and BMW CCA reports 75,000 active members. ACNA hovers around 10,000 and I believe that's including Canada. Anecdotally, Porsche and BMW forums seem full of ED journals but the Audi comps (audizine and Audiworld) don't have near the volume of Euro Delivery threads. I know this is a broad statement but I'd argue Audi trails BMW and Porsche in enthusiast following hence a lower likely take rate on European Delivery. Audi also terminated the program previously before the most recent iteration was reinstated in 2006. Like the M track days and the performance center schools, I suspect (and hope) that BMW looks at any financial cost to run ED as a marketing and brand loyalty expense. Fingers crossed the program lives on....especially with the discount component. |
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01-25-2019, 11:36 PM | #246 | |
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01-26-2019, 12:34 AM | #247 |
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It would seem logical that if the MT was the better transmission for the track teams like Turner and BMW RLL would be using them.
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01-26-2019, 12:57 AM | #248 | |
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Overall DCT would a better transmission since you don't have to worry about driver error, one variable down. I'm saying in some performance aspects, MT loses very little(downshift) or offers better(weight, gear ratio). I don't think I've lost to any DCT in acceleration from 150km/h+, all else being identical; probably because final gear ratio is much shorter than DCT, so stays in peak power band for longer which is crucial at top speed. 4th~6th gear in E92 is basically a cross gear transmission.
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01-26-2019, 01:22 AM | #249 | |
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Plus, logistically I had the hardest time getting my ED set up last summer, with a friendly dealer and nice recommendations all around. No allocations, no discounts whatsoever. It’s never been like that before. Overall, it points out to BMW decontenting the program, making it less attractive to the end user. These can be imminent signs of death.
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01-26-2019, 01:37 AM | #250 | |
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I couldn’t care less if my lap time was 2 seconds slower with the stickshift. Absolutely not a concern. When I go to the track, I measure my improvements from session to session, year to year, all to do with better technique, more confidence, more mental stamina. Me against myself, man against the machine. It’s never been about going fastest, or else I could have bought a Corvette or a Radical or similar and called it a day. It’s about the learning and the improvement process, in which a manual transmission is just another thing you as a driver must master, in addition to the miriad other things you must keep track of. When done right, in addition to the racing line, and tire/brake management, traffic management, maintaining consistency etc., it simply provides a better “high”, more of a satisfaction and feeling of achievement - for me at least. And again, the lap times are only significant for me personally. If you think you’ve maxed out a car on track simply because it has an automatic transmission of some kind, you’re delusional. And if you’re not maxing it out anyway, what difference could it possibly make if it had a stick or not. If you’re not racing professionally, then you’re just out having a good time. And what type of trophy/prize do you take home from a trackday? The correct answer is, your own car, undamaged, and your health, unchanged. Everything else is just BS.
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01-26-2019, 03:13 AM | #251 | |
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Okay it's not about going fastest, but it certainly is about going faster isn't it? Or how do you measure your improvement from lap-to-lap, etc? You mention the "miriad of other things" involved in the driving process. He isn't saying he's automatically "maxed out a car" just because he's driving it on track with an auto. He's exactly saying the same as you, that there is much more to perfecting your high-performance driving than rowing your own gears with a manual transmission, which I'll go ahead and agree with him that it's probably not the hardest one to master either. Don't go about calling others delusional when you're saying that if the car doesn't have a manual transmission, suddenly it can't be "man against the machine". You enjoy your manual. Maybe he feels like he's already had his fair share of improving his shifting skills, and now finds much more joy in perfecting the other things you need to put the car through it's paces effectively. There's nothing wrong with either, but it doesn't make anyone less or more of a driver just based on their preferences. |
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01-26-2019, 06:51 AM | #252 | ||
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I don't know many folks in BMWCCA or on Bimmerpost with one (or more) ED trips that wouldn't consider BMW near the top of the brand list when shopping for a new car. It works. Porsche is a zero discount ED option and, like BMW now, cars come out of dealer allocations. So while there is no stated cost for European Delivery when you order a car (unlike Atlanta or LA pickup), I've heard and found that dealers have less room to move. Porsche openly holds the program as a part of the company's culture. Panorama (the club magazine) and the 356 Registry (vintage pre 911 Porsche model club) constantly feature stories of European Delivery trips for US buyers dating back to the 50's and 60's. Mercedes still has up to 7% off if the discount is a major consideration. And Volvo will pay for your airfare plus some if Sweden is more your style. Again I highly doubt BMW kills the program given the brand equity it creates and the remaining peer set alternatives (Porsche, Mercedes, etc.). But, to your point, they might continue to reduce the financial benefit. |
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01-26-2019, 07:21 AM | #253 | |
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It appears that BMW race cars do not use either a DCT or 6MT. To the best of my knowledge the Z4 GTE use a Hewland/Xtrac 6-speed semi-automatic paddle-shift gearbox, the M235R Factory Racer use a ZF 8 Speed Automatic, the M6 GTE uses a an Xtrac 6-speed sequential semi-automatic paddle shifted transmission. I am not sure what Transmission is in the BMW M4 ZTE that has been modified for Alex Zanardi but I believe it uses a centrifugal clutch. I got a close look at Alex Zanardi's car (and got to meet Alex Zanardi) at an event at Manhattan Classic Car Club earlier this month. Other than its shape it does not appear to have very much in common with the production car. The driver's side door, which I would assume is made of carbon fiber, almost felt weightless when I opened it.
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01-26-2019, 03:00 PM | #254 | ||
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Then the hydraulic pump article mentions it again and also states BMWs time of 65 milliseconds with the gearbox trickled down from F1. Again, SMG wasn't 'crap' it's better for performance than PDK. It's just jerky at low speeds and it turned a lot of people off. Totally different experience at low speeds to a DCT (my experience is with Audi S6). At track speeds DCT is good when it guesses your next move overwork it feels like the old ZF6 at high speed. Hasn't been used in proper racing since the 80s I believe. I suppose I'm the only one that likes SMG and thus it's dead as can be. Enjoy the ZF8s I suppose. Not bad, but a step below DCT imo. |
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01-26-2019, 05:11 PM | #255 | ||
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BMW’s SMG can be shifted non-sequentially by executing quick successive pulls or by executing a kickdown shift, just like a DCT or AT can. A true SMG transmission cannot because the forks are moved by a rotating mechanical shift barrel that makes it physically impossible to do so. Quote:
Still, the fact is that “SMG” was not a sequential gearbox nor a racing gearbox. It was a great innovation that allowed an off-the-shelf manual transmission (the final generation used a bespoke box) to have its clutch operated automatically and to be alternatively shifted automatically as well. It was also an innovation whose life came to its natural end of cycle once DCT transmissions became cost effective and ready for widespread use in production vehicles. |
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01-26-2019, 05:23 PM | #256 | |
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A number of posters here have shown that they know a lot more about the DCT than I do and have driven them and understand its good and bad points. I will have to defer to them as they have real world experience and all I have is here say.
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